Charlotte's story - donating milk after loss

This episode does contain discussion of miscarriage, stillbirth and infant death.

This week, I’m speaking to Charlotte Mills, a midwife and IBCLC, whose third son, Robin, died before his birth at 20 weeks. Charlotte talks about losing Robin and her decision to continue lactating. She donated Robin’s milk to the Hearts Milk Bank where it went on to support premature and vulnerable babies.

We talk about the importance of discussing lactation after loss and the value donation can bring some parents. It’s not the right choice for everyone, but everyone deserves to have information about their options and how to manage milk production after their baby dies.

You may find the following resources helpful - 

Find Charlotte at @birthtale on Instagram 

Chester Milk Bank’s resource on donating after loss https://www.milkbankatchester.org.uk/donationafterloss/memorymilkgift/

Hearts Milk Bank’s resource on being a Snowdrop Donor: https://humanmilkfoundation.org/hearts-milk-bank/donating-after-bereavement/

https://www.tommys.org/

https://www.sands.org.uk/

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Emma Pickett  00:00

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Emma Pickett  00:47

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm going to be talking to Charlotte, Charlotte Mills about her son Robin, and about her experience of donating milk after losing Robin. So we're talking about milk donation, which anyone who knows me knows, is one of my favorite subjects, but I acknowledge we'll also be talking about baby loss as well, which isn't necessarily easy for everyone to hear, but I hope, very much, hope that you will stick with us to hear about this really important topic. Thank you very much for joining me today, Charlotte.

Charlotte Mills  01:15

Thank you for having me. It's very exciting to be here.

Emma Pickett  01:19

So we're actually talking in baby loss week at the moment, Baby loss Awareness Week, and I'm aware that this episode won't be going out for a long time, because I'm someone who books in advance and records in advance, but I guess every week is a baby loss Awareness Week. We need to be aware that one week of the year is not necessarily particularly crucial week, because we should be talking about it all the time. How do you feel about baby loss Awareness Week? What do you think its significance is? 

Charlotte Mills  01:47

I think it's really mixed. I think, yeah, I do think it has a place, and I think it's important. But I'm also aware that, like personally, for me, this is it's four years almost exactly since I lost Robin, and this is the first time I feel like I'm engaging in it with quite a different way four years on than I have done previously. It's been, yeah, it's been, it's been challenging. I read the lovely post yesterday talking about all the kind of different complexities around loss and how sometimes trying to sort of sum it up in this week, it can end up being a bit trite and a bit shallow. So, yeah, I think it's very, very complex, and there's lots of different layers and and every, every year, it's going to feel a bit different. But I also think it is important. I'm glad it happens, yeah, 

Emma Pickett  02:43

yeah, yeah. And I know what you mean about trite. I think that's one of the risk of awareness weeks and awareness months generally, is that some organizations feel that you know this, I'm doing all my duty by mentioning it in this week and this month, and I don't have to talk about the rest of the time. And I think particularly in the lactation world, we're not brilliant at talking about baby loss, and we don't necessarily know how to have that conversation. Four years since, since you lost Robin. Can we start by talking a little bit about Robin. Before we talk about Robin, tell me about your family generally, and tell me about you and where you are and what do you do professionally, and tell us a bit about Charlotte.

Charlotte Mills  03:20

Okay, so, yeah, I'm a midwife. I've been a midwife kind of all my professional life. I'm also a lactation consultant since 2011 

Emma Pickett  03:30

snap. I'm a year of 2011 as well. Great. High five, 

Charlotte Mills  03:35

absolutely. Yeah. So feeding support was quite a big thing for me from quite an early part in my midwifery career, and has led me now to I left the NHS in 2018 and I I run a kind of private find it always, always feels really weird referring to it as a business, because it doesn't feel like a business at all, But I support women and families in the postnatal period with feeding. I'm also a tongue tie practitioner, so that's become the big kind of focus on what I do, but with a real kind of love and enthusiasm around feeding support and my family. So I have my first baby, Rollo was born in 2014 so he's 10, and then two years later, his little brother Laurie was born. It was only when I started having children that I realized that I had this set idea that I would have three children. I'm one of three, and I didn't really know it was a thing, and then suddenly it was like, Well, I, I, I will have three children. My partner wasn't quite so sure, but in 2020 we decided, quite sure. Why 2020 seemed like a good time, but we were having lots of time at home, so we decided that it was time to have another baby. And. And, yeah, conceived Robin, thankfully, very easily. It was a really difficult pregnancy. From the start, I was 43 by that point, I had lots of issues with screening tests, and I finally, kind of came out of all of that and feeling, I was feeling really unwell, but I got to a point where everything was going really well, and I felt much better, and all the tests had come back negative, and finally able to enjoy the pregnancy. But when we went for our 20 week scan, there was no heartbeat. So that was at Lewisham. I'm based in South East London. So the wonderful staff at Lewisham looked after us. It was a Friday. We came home for 48 hours and then went back to the hospital on the Sunday to be induced and to give birth to Robin, which was thankfully quite as quick process for me. So he was born that evening.

Emma Pickett  06:04

Okay, you describe that in a very succinct practical How many times have you told that story?

Charlotte Mills  06:13

I don't probably tell it. You know, I feel like I don't tell it enough. One of the big things for me around baby losses, talking about it and trying to raise awareness, but then having that little kind of like, oh, well, should you know, am I deserving of this grief? I, you know, I was 20 weeks pregnant when I lost Robin. It wasn't, I wasn't a full term stillbirth. So should I be able to talk about so there's lots of like we've mentioned, lots of complexities around it. I think I tend to go into midwife mode a bit at times when I'm talking about it. And that was very much. It was interesting when, when we on the Friday, when we had the scan, it was a big deal because they hadn't been letting partners come to the scans because of COVID. 

Emma Pickett  07:01

I was just about to ask you, actually, gosh, that you must time that very carefully, because just a few weeks earlier, you'd have been on your own,

Charlotte Mills  07:08

presumably, and so, so he, he had come, we'd gone to the scan department, and it was exciting, because, yeah, he could come with us. And it was literally one of the first weeks where partners were allowed to come, and there was a mix up with the appointments and the scan department that had been canceled, basically. So we ended up going up to the midwifery day unit because I suspected I hadn't been feeling movements, and I just needed some kind of clarify. I needed some reassurance. So up on the midwifery day unit, they actually wouldn't let John in. So when they did scan me, I was on my own, but they they quite quickly let him in to be with me, thankfully. But at that there was a kind of 48 hour period where I was just a mess. And it was quite interesting. As soon as we walked back into Lewisham on that Sunday, John completely fell apart. My partner and I kind of found myself going into a kind of quite yeah midwife mode. So yeah, I go back and forth between the two, depending on who I'm talking to and what day of the week I can imagine.

Emma Pickett  08:17

Yeah, I'm gonna ask some questions, and please tell me if any of these don't feel comfortable. As a midwife when you're in that scan, I'm guessing you're you're pretty good at reading someone's face. I mean, you already had a sense, you hadn't had movement, and maybe something was going on that wasn't great. Could you sense that some quite quickly? Or were you in a period of unknown for a while where someone had to come in and give a second opinion and then someone had to finally sit you down. How long were you in that sort of state of unknown?

Charlotte Mills  08:45

Yeah. I mean, I hadn't really ever felt Robin move properly. So there was lots of people who sort of said, Oh, it's fine. You know, it's third baby that could be why. Or, you know, your placenta might be at the front and and so I sort of had all of that going through my head, but I was worried, and I was really glad that we had the scan. When we had the scan, thinking, you know, everything was going to be fine. When we went up to the midwifery day unit, I did, unfortunately, get a bit of an unpleasant attitude from the midwife, who was a bit like, you know, there's lots of reasons why you shouldn't, wouldn't be feeling the baby move, and, you know, we're really busy kind of attitude. But as soon as she started trying to find the heartbeat with the sonic aid, there was she couldn't find the heartbeat. And I think she sort of started to realize something wasn't right. But then they took me into the a little room and got the doctor to come and scan me. She started being much nicer to me at that point. And then when they said they couldn't find the heartbeat, I just remember letting out this awful noise, very kind of primal howl, almost, which I imagine John heard from the corridor. And I remember just. Turning my back on the midwife and the doctor, and kind of just looking at the wall, but just being Yeah, just an incredible wave of pain. And he Yeah. John came quite quickly. Yeah. That was Yeah. 

Emma Pickett  10:17

Thank you 

Charlotte Mills  10:18

the moment, yeah.

Emma Pickett  10:19

 And then you had to go home to Rollo and Laurie, and I'm guessing that Rolo was old enough to know you'd been pregnant and have an understanding of what was happening. I mean, you have 24 hours then, or 48 hours of having to tell people. I mean, one of the things about being pregnant, that 20 weeks pregnant, is everybody knows you're pregnant, or family and friends, not that, not that. I mean, I feel a bit funny about suggesting that people who are having an early loss have it easier because they don't have to tell people that's obviously definitely not true. But your child is probably aware that you're pregnant, which would necessarily be in the case earlier on. How did people react to you in those early sort of early days? And is there anything you would say to someone listening, who is at the other side of that conversation. What were the reactions that struck as helpful and positive, or were you just in a daze? You don't even remember telling people?

Charlotte Mills  11:09

Well, it's funny because I don't remember telling the boys. I was thinking about this this morning. So Rollo was six and Laurie was four, so they were both old enough they knew what was going on. We'd told them from about 12 weeks, and I remember getting they were at school, and I remember kind of coming home and something, someone bringing them, I think John went and got them from school. But I don't remember telling them or what their reaction was. I would say people's reactions can have a very, very long lasting effect. So I'm really fortunate. I've got an amazing group of friends and colleagues who were so supportive I couldn't have asked for for more support. But there were certain people who obviously through fear of saying the wrong thing. So I know it came from a good place, but there's certain people who I still remember from this day to this day, who they tend to be, people like mums on the school run, or people you you know well enough to chat with, and they know you're pregnant and you've had a conversation about being pregnant with them, but they never acknowledge the loss. And that is something that, at the time, I found incredibly painful. I felt like I'd done something wrong, or like it was I had some shame around I couldn't, kind of, I would have these horrible reactions when I walked past someone and they didn't, kind of know what to say, or have the ability to say anything. It just made me feel awful. And still to this day, I have issues around certain people because they just weren't, weren't able to say the right thing. And I've said this to people and, you know, other friends who said, Well, it's not because they're, you know, it's not they didn't mean to do anything unkind. They just didn't know, they didn't want to upset you, which is just the most ridiculous thing, because you, if you've lost a baby. It doesn't matter if it's the next day or the next month or the next year. You know, some nothing anyone say it's going to be, make that pain worse. It's only going to be, you know, all of this I'm doing talking to you, and posts I put on Instagram or whatever about baby loss, it's all to just acknowledge. You know, we need, we need our pregnancies and our babies to be acknowledged. And so, yeah, if you are on the other side of that and worried what to say to someone, just anything, just a smile, just acknowledge their loss. That's all you have to do. Acknowledge that life that's that's now gone. 

Emma Pickett  13:39

Yeah, yeah. Gosh, that vivid image of people literally not saying anything and just sort of looking, not catching your eye, looking the other way of you know, physically avoiding you. How awful that is, and that is coming from a rubbish place, of somebody who's centering themselves in that moment, frightened of emotion, frightened of tears. I mean, I guess for a small minority, there could be something else going on for them in terms of their own previously previous loss, but even then, you'd think those are people who'd get it even more. So I guess one message is that never, don't say anything. And even if you say, I don't know what to say. I'm nervous about saying something, but I want to acknowledge your loss. I mean, even something like that is halfway there. 

Charlotte Mills  14:19

Yeah, I had one friend I remember really clearly, because, again, the school run is often like people. It's too busy to say what you want to say. But I remember when Mum just making eye contact and smiling, and you know, that's all she needed to do to for me to know, you know, she was acknowledging what had happened, and she was saying how sorry she was that that happened to me? That's all you have to do. 

Emma Pickett  14:42

Yeah, so you went back to give birth to Robin, and did you have a team around you who were regular, standard midwives, or are there, is there a sort of specialist element to that experience? 

Charlotte Mills  14:55

There it was a Sunday, so it was very much the labor ward team of midwives I have. Say they were really, really lovely. I've got nothing, nothing bad to say about the care I received. And I was put in a room, usually on the labor labor ward, there'll be a room that is for parents to use when they've lost a baby. So sort of things like whisa test for the babies when they're born, I've been taken out of the room. So it was, it was a special room, and I had had really lovely care the Monday. I think the bereavement midwife came in and saw me on the Monday, because I stayed for about 24 hours.

Emma Pickett  15:34

Okay, and and when you give birth to Robin, what? What do you think is the ideal hours that follow that. What was your experience and and what would you like other parents to experience?

Charlotte Mills  15:46

Um, it's lovely now that most, in most units, the baby will stay with you, so that when I was the beginning of my midwifery career, that didn't happen the baby, you know, it was all about, don't let the mother see the baby and whisk the baby off. And we understand now so much more around, around everything, around grief, but particularly around baby loss. And we've we positively encourage moms to to to hold their babies. I've gone back into midwife mode, haven't I? I'm talking about about this happening to other people. You're not me.

Emma Pickett  16:17

By talking to me today, you are, you're you can't switch off that side of yourself. You're doing both things. And I'm also my questioning. I'm doing that as well. I'm asking you to talk about practice as well as your personal experience. Probably mine for the fact that I'm not asking you to rip open your emotional heart. You were talking about things that help other parents too, yeah, but don't, don't feel if you go into midwife mode, that's that's a failing on any level. You You know, would we are talking about these two sides of this experience, yeah,

Charlotte Mills  16:45

yeah. So Robin was with me for the whole time that we stayed before, you know, before, until we went home. And that was really important. We were, yeah, we were just given lots of time on our own, which is kind of what was needed. We had a slightly amusing situation where in on the Monday morning, so my sister had come. My sister and my brother had both come to look after the boys while we had been while we'd come into the hospital on Sunday night, and somewhere in the midst of all of that, my youngest son, Laurie, had jumped off a bunk bed and broken his thumb, which nobody knew it was broken. There was a lot of kind of like so he was sent off to school on Monday morning by my brother with the big, swollen thumb. And the phone the school had phoned John to say, we think Laurie has broken his thumb. I think you need to come and pick him up. And this was on, I can't remember. It was like maybe late morning on the Monday. And because of COVID, once John left, he wasn't allowed back, so he had to say his goodbyes to Robin, went off, got Laurie, brought him back to A and E in Lewisham hospital, and we ended up coordinating our discharge, so we all left Lewisham hospital together. So I've got this photo of me and Laurie. Laurie's arm in the sling, and me just looking so so sad and broken outside Lewisham hospital. So slightly odd turn of events, but yeah, we all, we all ended up being, being together at the hospital.

Emma Pickett  18:27

Were photos of Robin important to you? Are they important to you? 

Charlotte Mills  18:31

They are. They really are. I am. I found it really hard. I wanted to, I think I wanted to feel all these things when I held him that I didn't feel. We don't know how long he'd been dead for. When I gave birth, he was he wasn't in a sort of state that he was. He was beautiful. He wasn't like his skin, wasn't we call it sort of macerated when the skin has been broken down after a long time. He wasn't like that. He was I've got photos of him and but I think I just wanted to feel all these things and hold him and feel all these things that I just I was numb. I wasn't feeling. So the I do have moments where I sort of think I wish I could rewind and just have him again and hold him and feel those things, but I don't know. Yeah, I was sort of hoping for something that didn't come, but the photos, so maybe that makes the photos even more important. I've got photos of me holding him, and I do really believe that all of that, anything that you can gather together as kind of evidence of their life, and memory of their life becomes very, very important. So all the memory boxes, there's a company called Simba who do a memory box, so that I was given that, and it had lots of you. It had like little knitted teddy bears that you can give one to the baby and you take one home. In the end, I chose to take both of them home and gave one to Laurie and one to Rolo. And then these little purple teddy bears that we still have, but all of that stuff I'd given to women's and so many times in the past, but I didn't realize how important it was. So yeah, all those kind of little bits, bits and pieces that you gather. And there was also an amazing they brought me, like, a selection of books, and I got to choose a book to take home to roller and Laurie. So again, we still, we have those books still, and we know that they're the books that that Robin gave us. So all that stuff does really, really matter. 

Emma Pickett  20:41

Yeah, and, and are you a religious person? And whether or not you religious person did, did a service matter to you?

Charlotte Mills  20:50

We, we chose. I'm, I, I'm, I'm not particularly religious. I like to take the bits of it that I like, pick the bits that I like. But on the whole, I'm not, I'm not a huge believer, little bit of a hypocrite. So I like to sing a hymn. We had a we chose to have a cremation for Robin. One of the options, one of the choices that you sort of have to make, not immediately, but you can choose to have a group cremation with all the babies that were lost around the same time. And that would have happened the service would have been quite far from our home. So we chose to have an individual cremation at our local crematorium, which is really close to our house, and we now have a rose bush there for Robin, and it's become a very important special place for me to visit. And I really feel like Robin is there when I go there, so I'm really glad I kind of made that choice. But that, yeah, that happened quite a long time after the his, his birth,

Emma Pickett  22:02

yeah, and, and there's a, there's a new registration system, isn't there? Tell us a bit about that. 

Charlotte Mills  22:08

Yeah. Well, I haven't got my piece of paper yet, but I have applied for my piece of paper. So up until very recently, if your baby's born before 24 weeks gestation, you don't get a birth certificate. And the government have just bought an initiative. It's been around for a year or so, and you can apply for a birth certificate for your baby. I think no matter what gestation, so even first trimester miscarriages, and when I say even I don't mean it sound like they're not as important, because this whole experience has really taught me that gestation isn't, isn't very important. Baby loss, whether it's in the first trimester, mid trimester, last trimester, they're all all carry a lot of grief. And yeah, so the first time I applied for it, John managed to not my partner has to get an email and he has to fill something out, which he managed to not do in the right time frame. So it's taken me a few months to get around to applying again, and we're just waiting for it to come through. So that'd be nice if that comes this week. But yeah, it's, it's a lovely thing that the government of it's that initiative,

Emma Pickett  23:24

yeah, no, I think that is really special, for sure. 

Emma Pickett  23:31

A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book published by Pinter Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE10, Makes Milk Pickett Emma 10. Thanks. 

Emma Pickett  24:18

Let's talk about milk. 

Charlotte Mills  24:20

Yeah, 

Emma Pickett  24:20

before we talk about Robin's milk, tell me about your breastfeeding experiences with your first two

Charlotte Mills  24:26

I was very passionate and also very naive. Went into birth and feeding thinking I would have a very straightforward birth and a very straightforward feeding experience, which was not the case. Rollo was born. It was a difficult birth. He was forceps. We were all knackered, and he didn't know how to feed for quite a while. We established that he had a tongue tie. Quite early on, but at that stage in my career, I knew very little about tongue tie, and it felt like there wasn't really anyone around me who did know very much about it, which is what really spurred me on to become to go and do the training to become a tongue tie practitioner. He never had his tongue tie divided. I fed him in pain for six weeks. I was very stubborn, and eventually, after six weeks, it became pain free, and we we had a long breastfeeding journey, and Laurie was the same tongue tie I had his released when he was about a week old, and went on to feed him. It was never our breastfeeding journeys were never completely straightforward, but I did breastfeed them both for over a year.

Emma Pickett  25:48

And did you know about milk donation? Well, I guess you obviously did on for on a sort of professional level. But had you had any personal experience of milk donation before you had Robin?

Charlotte Mills  25:58

not massively, I sort of come across Natalie talking at various study days, and always been.

Emma Pickett  26:05

Footnote, Dr Natalie Schenker, who's the Thank you, the co founder of hearts milk bank in the Human Milk Foundation, and is a legend in the lactation world. Just that's my little brackets. Footnote, sorry, carry on.

Charlotte Mills  26:16

Yeah. I couldn't remember her surname, so I was going to say shut so thank you for that. Yeah, and a couple of times Cena talking, and just been really wowed by her passion. So I knew about hearts, and I knew, you know, the history of kind of lot of the hospitals no longer having milk banks and so, and I'd also come across it in terms of supporting. When Rollo was born, my one of my best friends, who's also a midwife, had her second baby, and she'd really struggled with breastfeeding with both her babies, and I ended up donating milk to her, because I had lots of it, and she, I think we were exploring options of her getting donor milk, because her babies weren't, weren't, kind of putting on weight well, and she wasn't producing enough milk. So, so, yeah, kind of come across it in different capacities.

Emma Pickett  27:13

So when you had Robin, what, how early on were you thinking about his milk and what might happen with that?

Charlotte Mills  27:20

Yeah, so one of the reasons I wanted to sort of talk about this topic is because there is this, I feel it was an assumption, and it very much happened to me. So the day after, so I gave birth on the Sunday, on the Monday, I remember a midwife coming in quite, quite early in the morning. I wasn't really, you know, asleep. I wasn't sleeping, but I remember being remember being given a kind of little paper cup full of various medications with not really any explanation from her about what they were or what they were giving me, or why would they were giving me. So one of those was car, but I can never say it properly, coppergolin, which is a drug, a medication that is often, and I say often, generally, always given to women when they have a late miscarriage or a stillbirth to dry up their milk supply. It was given to me with not a word of explanation, so not even a like this is what this does.

Emma Pickett  28:23

 It's got pretty hefty side effects for one for one thing, I mean, that's one of the reasons it doesn't tend to be used universally anymore, is that we're discovering more about the side effects. I'm glad you said that word, because I always pronounce it wrong. You've obviously got used to saying medical medication words, so it can cause like hypertension, and, you know, can have some quite serious side effects. So I'm thinking, you know, that was, you know, four years ago, was given, it may not be given a standard, simply because of that now, but I'm hoping it wouldn't be give us given a standard, because people should be having conversations about options. So it was literally in a cup. Take this thing, Charlotte, off you go. And you said, hang on, what's this? Yeah, in a way that many other probably, probably wouldn't.

Charlotte Mills  29:07

I did wonder if it was, there was little explanation, because there was this kind of, oh, you're a midwife, you know, sort of thing. But I even so it was, yeah, I wasn't. I remember just thinking, Well, that's nice. I'll just take the painkillers, thank you, and I'll leave that there for now and and have a think. And I remember at the time thinking there is no way I can make a decision around what I want to do about my milk supply right now, in this moment, hours after giving birth to my dead baby who's sitting beside me. I just remember thinking that was too big a thing to think about, but I knew I didn't want to just take the cabergal in, and I think I started doing a little bit of research over the next few days, once I was home, I guess. The COVID had been left at the hospital, but I don't remember at what point I decided I wasn't going to be taking that 

Emma Pickett  30:05

so you were making a decision through inaction, rather than necessarily sitting down and going right, this is what I'm going to be doing, 

Charlotte Mills  30:13

yeah, and a big part of what I want to talk about is just that conversation. And I would love to think that things have really changed. But we're talking about four years ago. I don't think things have changed that much. I have been in touch with a few bereavement services. So I worked at the Whittington for years and years, and I know the bereavement team there, the woman that runs it, very well. And 

Emma Pickett  30:38

the Whittington is my local hospital, actually? Yeah, I could run there in 20 minutes if I was a runner, but I'm not. So that's of Islington, North London, for anyone who's not familiar, yeah.

Charlotte Mills  30:47

So that was where I lived for years before I moved south east. So I sort of stayed at the Whittington for a long time. I'm a creature of habit. I don't like change. So from 20 22,001 to 2018 I was on and off at the Whittington, so a long time, and they have brought in a new leaflet, sort of discussing options. So, so this is it is changing, and I'm going up there to talk to some staff, actually, on Wednesday about this, this subject. So yeah, that's my kind of big passion. Is just that women are given the option rather than given the COVID line without any explanation, and lots of people obviously are not going to choose to pump and donate. I think that's a big choice to make, and it's not going to be for everyone, and that's not I'm not suggesting that everyone do it, but we need to give women informed choice around this topic, for doing it around everything else, why we're not doing it around this?

Emma Pickett  31:46

Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, I've been in lactation, you know, for 10 plus years, and they're definitely in the last four or five years, the conversation is happening much more So Chester milk bank, with the memory milk tree that's been established, you know, a couple of years ago. You know, obviously hearts milk bank have their Snowdrop donors, and they've created a leaflet that they're encouraging to be used in lots of different settings. And because hearts milk bank have hubs around England and Wales, that's potentially a lot of people getting that messaging. But there is, there is still that discomfort about having that conversation, isn't there? And I think one of the reasons that maybe it happens is because people are worried that if you mention it and someone doesn't want to do it, are you then making them feel guilty that they are less of a mum by not doing it. And if you tell the story of you know somebody who did it and felt this value of giving their child's milk to other children, if someone doesn't want to do that, are they being less kind, less giving? I mean, it's, it's a complicated conversation to have, isn't it? 

Charlotte Mills  32:50

It is. And I mean, it's something I've considered, because by talking about my experience, yeah, exactly that. I don't want anyone. It's not going to be right for everyone, but I just feel so strongly that for some people, it will be very, very healing. That was my experience, anyway. So I don't know how we get the message across in a way that is, you know, the last thing you want to be doing is making anyone feel any negative, bad for not wanting to do it. But I think, like every you know, there's lots of things around pregnancy and birth where we, you know, we, we can just talk about the options available.

Emma Pickett  33:35

So women, it's a balance, isn't it? I mean, if to be frightened of making somebody feel bad is a valid feeling. But then also, if five years later, someone comes back, back and says, Why didn't you tell me that was something I could do? Why did you take that away from me? Why am I only hearing about this now, listening to a podcast, seeing some leaflet somewhere, I never even knew I could do that. And the loss of that, that secondary loss of realizing it wasn't even an option, I think for some people, is absolutely devastating. So we probably have to take a little bit of a risk with that initial conversation. Yeah, when you were a midwife, did you ever have that conversation with anybody about donating milk?

Charlotte Mills  34:14

I don't think so. I I can't remember, and I did. I spent a lot of time, particularly towards the end of my sort of labor ward career. I spent a lot of time looking after families through loss, and I just don't remember it being a conversation, no, yeah. Just wasn't normal, wasn't. So I think it's one of the things that having my own children and going through, yeah, I feel like there's, there's, there's parts of my approach to midwifery care, and that's been really changed by my own experiences of having babies. So. Maybe that was part of it, just not being in that having ever produced milk, I don't know. No, it wasn't a conversation that I remember having, though,

Emma Pickett  35:07

yeah, I'm gonna ask you a little bit more in a minute about your personal experience. But just talking to a midwife colleague who's listening to this, thinking, okay, I can get some of these leaflets from hearts milk bank or, you know, I can send them to the Chester milk bank page about the memory milk tree. Is that enough to say, Would you like to read this leaflet so you've got some choices about your lactation? Or do you think someone has to sit down and actually say, let's talk about your choices? Because actually, even if they choose not to donate, people need information about suppression of milk supply, and they need to be able to absorb that message and listen to that message. So how would you have a conversation about lactation with a mum?

Charlotte Mills  35:48

Well, I think we've got time. It doesn't all have to happen immediately. I was very lucky when I lost Robin. The bereavement midwife came and saw me at home numerous times, which felt like such an incredible service for the NHS to be providing. And I know, I don't actually know if that's still the case at Lewisham, but that's a conversation that those specialist midwives can be having. They're not there 24/7 to see everyone immediately. But it doesn't have to be an immediate conversation. So I think for the midwives, who are incredibly busy, and it's just that kind of idea that, you know, just early on, maybe just yeah, just saying there are options, because at the end, you know, there aren't many options. It's either you you take a drug to dry up your milk, or you let the lactation happen and gradually stop on its own, or you decide to pump and donate. So there's kind of the three options. So I think it is okay to just mention that and give some leaflets. I don't think women well, we know women in that me immediate period with grief, they're not taking information on board. It has to be revisited a few times, I think so. I think it's fine to just to just talk about the options and not be afraid to put them out there. 

Emma Pickett  37:16

Yeah, I think that's a really valuable message. It doesn't have to be literally in the hospital room while you were holding your baby. I've got, you know, got to be within six hours. It's got to be within 10 hours, not least because donating after loss isn't necessarily about massive volume. So it's not like we're talking to someone who has to get bumping quickly if it's days later that that can absolutely be be valid and important. So you went home, you hadn't taken this drug. When did you start actually pumping again? 

Charlotte Mills  37:44

It's a bit of a blur. I know at some point I reached out to I've got an incredible network of local ibclcs lactation consultants, and on the WhatsApp group, I think we'd had a chat. We'd had a group call, literally the day I was going to the hospital for my 20 week scan. So I, I'm, sort of told them or what had happened, and then mentioned that I was, I wanted to put I was considering pumping, and I didn't have a decent the pump I'd used for the boys, didn't feel like it felt like it was sort of giving up the ghost a bit. It needed a new pump. So I remember sort of saying, what would you guys recommend? And before I knew it, they'd whipped round. They'd done a little whip round, and they bought me a spectra. Someone brought me a spectra. So that was, like, amazing that they they did that. So a decision had been made by that point. I didn't just decide to do it because they bought me a spectra. But, yeah, I remember doing a bit of kind of research and going, Okay, this is, I mean, this is, this is going to happen. The mill is going to come in. I don't know. It's, I think it just felt like, what the hell had just happened to me? Why had this happened? Who was this little baby that we'd lost? Who was Robin? What did his life mean? It just somehow made some kind of sense of it all. If I could get this breast milk and give it to someone, and someone could benefit from it, somehow, there was some meaning to his life that I think that's what was going through my head. And I didn't, I mean, I think the fact that I breast, obviously having breastfed two babies before for a long time, made the whole process much easier. So quite quickly, I was producing a lot of milk, and I do the other thing, I would say that for me, it gave me permission to do what you should be doing in the postnatal period, which is go back to bed regularly. And you know, I had the excuse that I was going to pump so I could just. You know, I could remove myself from family life and go to bed, and I remember watching lots of really, really bad TV and pumping. And that was, you know, you know, it was almost like my body was allowing me to recover, physically and emotionally by this, by giving myself these windows to pump. Sorry, I don't think I've answered your question there. 

Emma Pickett  40:25

No, no. I tracked. I appreciate the value of bad TV. I'm a massive fan of bad TV and the emotional value it can have. So you started pumping. You had producing quite large volumes. Have you already spoken to a milk bank at this point? 

Charlotte Mills  40:38

Yeah, I'd reached out to Hearts at some point again, it's all a bit of a blur, and they'd been incredibly supportive and just said, See, see what happens. You do have to have some blood tests and stuff. There was a few kind of logistics that felt quite not overwhelming, but a bit like, Oh, can I manage this right now? But I think the lovely bereavement midwife took my bloods for me, so they provide you with all the equipment, and you can go to your GP and get them to do that. Or, or if a midwife is visiting, you ask her to do that, yeah, and that was like I say quite quickly. I think they sent me loads of little bottles, and quite quickly, I was producing a lot of milk.

Emma Pickett  41:28

Yeah, so I'm sure you spoke to the lovely Joe, probably at heart, who is part of the lactation support team. So you had your blood tests done, they came back in a useful way. You were then had all this milk. And I'm guessing some lovely person on a blood bike came and took milk from your home. A man on the bike, 

Charlotte Mills  41:45

I think he was called David. I've got a photograph of David. I it was the most special moment he arrived. He was this incredible man. He's volunteering his time to drive his motorbike up and down the motorway, and I remember Rollo and Laurie were both with me when he arrived, and we I went and got this insane milk from the freezer and filled his his little box. And I've got photos, yeah, of all the milk and him and I, it was just it was such a special moment that first time He came and got my milk, and it did like, I love the fact that the boys were part of that. They knew it was mummy milk. It was Robin's milk. It was, you know, one thing that I've really tried to do is keep Robin alive within our family. And we talk about him a lot, and the boys talk about him a lot, and, yeah, I'll be very, always, eternally grateful for David and his motorbike.

Emma Pickett  42:42

Yeah, blood bikers, they're amazing. They're literally zipping everywhere and and that moment where, I mean, presumably, I'm guessing he knew that you were donating after loss, was that? 

Charlotte Mills  42:52

Yeah, we talked. I desperately wanted to bring him in for a cup of tea, but we couldn't because of COVID, so I think we had a cup of tea on the doorstep. Yeah, he was very sweet. 

Emma Pickett  43:02

So just to mention that some people who are donating after loss don't have an enormous amount of milk. Some people may just have a very small amount that they choose to make jewelry with or some kind of Memento with. But you You did have a pretty hefty amount. So you must know, therefore, that you really did change the lives of a lot of little babies in the world. I mean, that's got to be pretty darn special to imagine that Robin's milk is was out there and it and it literally can save lives. You know, we could talk length about the value of donor milk and how it reduces risk of some serious infections, and the difference it makes to babies development. That is a pretty amazing legacy. And if no one had mentioned that to you, or you did not know about that, you know, that would have been a great secondary loss in some ways, I guess. How long did you donate milk for?

Charlotte Mills  43:51

I did it for about two months again. I was looking back through photos. I mean, I went back to work quite quickly, I would say, far too quickly. Now when I look back on it, but I quickly was doing I was only pumping twice a day and getting these huge volumes. So I my breast health was not okay. After a couple of months of that, I saw some really terrifying pictures of my boobs that I still have on my phone, where so I don't even know what was going on. Some form of, I can't remember that mastitis is called. That's a different type of mastitis, but that might I sort of, I don't think my boobs were in great health, so it naturally kind of came to an end after two months, yeah.

Emma Pickett  44:42

I mean, one thing I'd say about the lovely team at hearts milk bank is they, they're really sensitive to that risk, and they're they will absolutely support somebody to wind their lactation down. When you came to decision right now, it's time to stop pumping. Did you have mixed emotions at that moment? How are you getting on with how.

Charlotte Mills  44:59

You feeling I yeah, I think there was pressure from various camps. I think people thought was a bit nuts. I felt a bit judged. 

Emma Pickett  45:12

So for for actually donating? 

Charlotte Mills  45:16

yeah. I  mean, I think family members, not my not my partner, not my family, but I think my mum, I think I'd been on holiday, my mum and sister or something was pumping and there was a kind of, I think, just, why are you doing this to yourself? Kind of attitude, more because they care about me and they wanted to protect me, but, and I do remember thinking, what am I? You know, am I making this decision to stop for the right reason, but I do think it's sort of the choice was at that point taken away from me because of the health of my boobs as well. So it had been. I remember just thinking it had been, felt like a bit of a luxury. I know that's maybe a strange thing thing to say, but to be able to sort of go, I'm going to pump now, and I close the bedroom door and get into bed and watch the shit TV. And it was, you know, I think that was, that was so important on so many different levels. But it did, in a way, maybe it felt a bit like a luxury, and it was time to time to kind of return to normal life, which I think I did far too quickly, but at the time, you know, I had two kids who needed me and needed to work.

Emma Pickett  46:28

Yeah, I mean, what you're saying about sort of, why do family members not quite getting it? I think, when we live in a world where not everybody gets breastfeeding full stop, certainly not everyone gets, why would you donate milk, full stop? And then why are you donating, you know, Robin's milk on top of that. And do you think, I mean, tell me if this is not right, but do you think we live in a world where people are because we're uncomfortable about loss, we don't necessarily want to see it in a sort of real life situation, when you're pumping, you're reminding people of that loss. And, yeah, that's 100% 100%

Charlotte Mills  47:05

I mean, I think there is this whole and I felt it myself, and I still feel it. I still have moments when I'm talking about Robin and like, I really want to talk about him and talk about and and raise awareness, but I still have like, Oh, God, is that person judging me because they think I shouldn't be making a fuss, or I shouldn't, you know, this idea of people, you know, make making a fuss, or, you know, yeah, and the pumping was part of that, I think for some that was in my head, not saying that that's necessary what Other people were thinking, but it does. I think you're right. People, people don't want to talk about loss and they don't want to talk about boobs. You know the combination? 

Emma Pickett  47:52

I know it's not, yeah, the vent loss and boobs in combination is, is extra, extra tricky for some people. For sure, I saw you mentioned on Instagram that you're going to that you're going to go and visit hearts and tell us a bit about snow drop donors and what's going on there.

Charlotte Mills  48:10

Well, I don't know much. I've just been in touch with them this morning about that. It made me realize that there, because I think, like from some of the things you said, as well, there is a growing uptake of people. Uptakes not the right world, but people donating after loss. It is a growing area, and they, they have their snow drop donors there. So there any donors who, who donate after loss. Are called Snowdrop donors. And yeah, they're having this event on Wednesday to mark baby loss Awareness Week, where they're planting Snowdrop bulbs. So as I'm at the Whittington, it feels like easy to go to Houston and get a train out to the milk bank. So I'm going to go and be a part of that. Meet some other donors, hopefully, 

Emma Pickett  49:03

yeah, that will be really special. I'd imagine meeting other other women who've had that made that choice too. So, I mean, the choice of the snow drop flower is obviously, you know, it's a beautiful flower, and it's looks a bit like a bit of milk, a little bit like a drop of white milk. And there are lots of decorations around the milk bank with sort of drawings of snow drops. And have you ever met anybody else that donated after loss?

Charlotte Mills  49:26

I was actually talking to a friend on Saturday who had a slightly different experience 19 years ago. Her baby was born at around 32 weeks, and and her baby lived for a few months. So she was she was expressing to give milk to her baby, but had far too much, and so was donating that milk. So that was really interesting to talk to her, because it was obviously such a long time ago. And. Um, and I did ask her the question, I know her quite well, so I could get away with it. But you know, if, if your baby hadn't lived, would you have liked the opportunity? Would you if someone had said you could pump to donate milk, would you have still done that? And she said, Yes, I think I would. And I thought that was quite important to hear. And also, it was her first baby, so, and she, you know, she was able to produce full supply. So that's one of the things I've always wondered. You know, if Robin had been my first baby, maybe I would have, would have been much harder to to, particularly a 20 week loss, would I have been able to produce much milk. But like you say, any small amounts? It's not really about the amount, is it?

Emma Pickett  50:47

Yeah, so you're going to go to hospitals and talk to colleagues and ex colleagues. You do feel like you're on a bit of a mission to make sure that every mum gets the opportunity to have this conversation?

Charlotte Mills  50:58

Yeah? I mean, I did feel, I just remember, at the time, feeling really kind of strongly that it felt like we've learned so much around grief, particularly around baby loss, grief and this, you know, we touched upon this earlier, this idea, like I've seen in my 20 year career, so much change and this understanding Now that by acknowledging the loss, by holding the babies, by being with your baby, by taking footprints, by taking photos, all of those things we know that's that's the much that that allows parents to grieve in a much healthier way. And this kind of idea around suppressing milk supply, it just felt like a continuation of this old belief system of suppressing the grief and hiding it all away and not talking about it. And so it feels a bit like we've come so far, but then there's this area where we're still a bit stuck in the past. So yeah, I always wanted to raise awareness, and I wasn't quite sure the best way to go about it. But with these two things happening in this week, we'll see, see what happens. And I think it is a time where change is happening already. So if we can just Yeah, help bring a bit more awareness to those changes. And yeah, hopefully make some changes, which I've said the word change, there quite a lot.

Emma Pickett  52:21

So in terms of resources, when you were sort of Googling around, I'm guessing you found the Human Milk Foundation website, which has a page about the snowdrop donors. We've obviously got the Chester milk bank resource. Are there any other resources that you you would recommend, whether it's to parents or professionals? 

Charlotte Mills  52:38

For me, personally, Sands and Tommy's have both been really important, not specifically around donating, but just for for support after loss, and the helplines that they they offer. I've also got a lot of I do a lot of fundraising for for Tommy's, I like to jog slowly around long distances and get people to pay raise money for charities. So that's been I've found that really helpful for me as well.

Emma Pickett  53:13

Do Tommy's and Sands talk about donating after loss, donating milk after loss in a way that feels comfortable? Or do you think that's something that I don't know.

Charlotte Mills  53:23

I don't know. It's something that I yeah, I'll have a look at that. Actually, now you mention it. I'm I'm not sure.

Emma Pickett  53:29

Gosh, thank you so much, Charlotte for sharing your mission. You've done a very good job of splitting yourself into two halves and being the advocate and the professional and being the mum at the same time. And I'm very grateful for you for doing that. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you think it's important we mentioned, or anything you'd like to say? 

Charlotte Mills  53:47

I think just something that came up for me just when I was talking about the change over the years. So my parents lost a baby. My sister, Lucy, was born a year before me. So that was in 1976 showing my age, and she died of sudden death syndrome about six weeks after she was born. And having just seen the impact that that model of bereavement, or, you know, the care, the lack of care that they received, and the impact it's had on their life and the changes that we look at now. You know, it just really, really highlights for me, how important it is that we get this right. The repercussions of not getting this right are so far reaching. So, yeah, I think that sort of also plays into my kind of enthusiasm for raising awareness. And yeah, thank goodness that we have such great bereavement services around baby loss now. And thank you to all of those people that have championed and worked so hard. Jane laking at the you. Whittington is we started our life at the Whittington together as young, early in our early 20s, and she went on to be to just establish the such a good bereavement service there. So, yeah, it's great that we've got people like that. I know all the hospitals have various, various champions that have provide, have helped to create these amazing services that we have now,

Emma Pickett  55:24

yeah, I think that's, that's, that's a really valuable takeaway, isn't it? That look at that conversation around milk donation is a moment's, you know, a minute's conversation just to start that ball rolling. But, but the impact of that really lasts for decades and lifetimes. It's, it's not just about milliliters of milk in little, small bottle. It's, it's just a really powerful sensation that someone is making that choice and making that contribution and and you talk about it as Robin's milk, and that's, that's, that's really special to to imagine that you know that black part of him carried on, and he had that impact on so many families lives. Thank you very much for sharing today, Charlotte, really, really appreciated.

Charlotte Mills  56:05

Thank you so much for having me

Emma Pickett  56:06

and yes. So this episode goes out weeks after baby loss Awareness Week. Everyone's wondering what we're banging on about it, but you know, I will, we will make sure we sign post all the resources in the show notes. And if anyone is a professional, maybe they can reach out to you if they want some support around how to have these conversations. And really, really happy to have the conversation. Yeah, are you a webinar person? I feel like maybe you should do a little webinar about this for professionals and and you're pulling a face as if to say, Haley, what are you putting me to but yeah, I think I know that this conversation, other professionals are having this conversation too, but I think you do talk about it really valuably, and you've obviously got a really special perspective. I think we just want professionals to feel confident about having these conversations, and I think you would help that to happen. Thanks, Charlotte. 

Emma Pickett  56:59

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.