Ellie's story - breastfeeding with confidence

This week, I have the privilege of chatting with Ellie Warner, a hairdresser from Leeds, about her breastfeeding journey with her son, Ezra.

Ellie initially knew little about breastfeeding but had an instinctual desire to do it. Ellie faced challenges, including gestational diabetes, a tongue-tie and torticollis, which eventually contributed to a breast abscess developing within weeks of Ezra’s birth. But Ellie was not to be deterred! At the same time she became a peer supporter and is passionate about providing support for working-class mothers.

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Look on instagram for @tortibreastfeeding for Nicola Walker’s discussion on torticollis and breastfeeding. 

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Emma Pickett  00:00

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Emma Pickett  00:46

Thank you very much for joining me today. I am very excited to be looking at the lovely face of Ellie, who is a mum from Leeds, and we're going to be talking today about her breastfeeding journey and breastfeeding her son, Ezra, and generally having a good old gossip about breastfeeding. So I'm very excited for you to join me today. Ellie, how are you doing?

Ellie Warner  01:06

I'm good. Thank you so much for having me. I'm like, having a real, surreal fangirl moment right now, because I'm obsessed with your podcast. And never in a million years did I think that I would one day be on it myself. So thanks for having me.

01:20

That's so sweet. Thank you. Well, fan girl, right back at you. Kelly. I think you are fantastic, and I'm really thrilled to be talking to you today. So if I go into any areas that don't feel comfortable, you're going to let me know. But other than that, I'm going to dig deep. We're going to talk about breastfeeding. We're going to have a good old gossip. 

Ellie Warner  01:38

So get your shovel out!

01:40

Get your shuffle out, milk scoop. I don't know, something milk related. Okay, so, so you have Ezra. How old is Ezra now?

Ellie Warner  01:48

So Ezra is coming up to 16 months old, and he's my first child, and we're still happily breastfeeding away.

01:58

And you're now well into toddler breastfeeding and beyond infancy. And we'll talk about that a bit more in a minute. Yeah, let's go back to the very beginning. So before you had Ezra, yeah, what did you already know about breastfeeding, and did you have lots of sort of family experience and lots of friends who are breastfeeding? Where were you sort of, if I was to do a little time travel back to early age 19, what was your, what was your world of breastfeeding like at that point?

Ellie Warner  02:26

At 19, I would have I didn't know a thing about breastfeeding, and I would have probably laughed at somebody who I saw breastfeeding, which is like so horrible to admit, but I feel like that's just the kind of attitude that I had, I just didn't know anything about it, and it probably, probably laughed because I felt uncomfortable. Yeah, do you know what I mean? So I suppose that's the culture that I was surrounded with about breastfeeding, and I didn't think about breastfeeding. It would never have even crossed my mind until my sister had children, and she formula fed both her children, but I remember just having this feeling that when I held her babies, whether this sounds weird or not, that I could have just put her baby to my breast. 

03:16

Wow, that's amazing, yeah. Like, even though it wasn't sort of part of your normal life, and you didn't see a lot of breastfeeding around you, there was something deep in your soul that said one, one day, Ellie, this is going to be your experience. 

Ellie Warner  03:29

Yeah, yeah. Literally. And my sister's like, yeah, don't say that. That's weird, you know, like that I could breastfeed her children. But literally, like that is the only thing that I can say that has made me want to breastfeed, like it was just an instinctual thing. And I'm sure that not everybody feels like that about breastfeeding, but that was my experience.

03:52

So something hormonal going on there, a bit of oxytocin when you met your nieces, nephews, and, yeah, something, wow. That's amazing. I don't think I've ever heard anyone describe that to me before. So, so  how long after that, were you pregnant yourself?

Ellie Warner  04:06

So I had my first child, Ezra, at 33 and my sister was, she's three years younger than me, and she had her first baby at 21 and her second baby at 26 so quite a bit before I even had children. Yeah, so I didn't really know anything about the health benefits, about breastfeeding, or do you know those sorts of reasons for wanting to do it? I literally just thought. I've got that instinct. I know that when I've got my own little baby in my arms,  that's what  I want to do.

04:47

Yeah, I think there's this sort of myth that mums and dads sort of sit down and do their research, and they they look at all the research papers, and they go, Oh, okay, so you know, antibodies and reduced risk of hospitalization. So, yes. I will decide to breastfeed tick, but it's often so much more instinctive than that. 

Ellie Warner  05:05

Yeah, I literally had no clue at all. So I'm now a peer supporter, and since having my own baby like I've learned about all the amazing health benefits about breast milk. But at first I had no idea. Not until after my son was born, did I know anything. 

Emma Pickett  05:24

You did not really have antenatal education in breastfeeding. No. What was your antenatal classes like?

Ellie Warner  05:29

So I didn't attend any antenatal classes, and I did have a doula who did support me with my decision to breastfeed, and one of the one so I actually had a home birth. One of the reasons why I had a home birth was because I wanted to breastfeed. And I'd heard so many stories about ladies giving birth in hospital, wanting to breastfeed, and then ended up leaving hospital formula feeding just because they wanted to get out so and I just thought, I do not want that to happen to me. And I did also have gestational diabetes, so I did get asked in my midwifery appointments how I intended on feeding my baby. And I said that I wanted to breastfeed. And then it kind of, I feel like it's just a tick box exercise, and then the tick to the box, and then didn't talk about it anymore. Do you know? All right, yeah, great. You want to breastfeed? 

Emma Pickett  06:29

Okay, so did nobody? Did nobody explain to you that by breastfeeding, you were reducing your risk of going on to develop full type two diabetes. So mums that have gestational diabetes, it's even more important that they breastfeed compared to the general population. Did you ever have that conversation with anyone? 

Ellie Warner  06:48

No, I didn't. But kind of like, through doing my own research, I did realize that, but I suppose, like, because I had gestational diabetes, and then you get considered to be high risk. It's a high risk pregnancy then, and I wanted to have a home birth. Basically, I was going against guidance by having a home birth. And I did actually buy some ready made formula in just to have because I was petrified that I might have to get transferred into hospital because breastfeeding didn't get off to a good start, or, like, they had low blood sugar or something like that. And I actually did get a comment from a midwife, because I was like, oh, yeah, I intend to breastfeed. But obviously it's an unknown thing, isn't it? Until, like, you've done it, but I've got this formula just in case. And the midwife actually said to me, Oh, good. I'm glad you're not one of those mums. Yeah, so, like, at the time, or a bit, like, like, whatever, but, like, I look back on it now and I'm like, wow. Like, do you know I'm quite a strong willed and, like, quite a strong person, and if somebody labeled me one of those mums, like, I wouldn't care. But I feel like, as women in society like and we're groomed to do as we're told that you don't want, not everybody would like to be called one of those mums. I thought, yeah, one of those mums. 

Emma Pickett  08:20

Sorry, but you damn well are one of those mums, as am I most people listening to this, and somebody that actually organizes a home birth because of their breastfeeding success chances and and hoping to increase their risk. You know the chances of breastfeeding successfully, you're absolutely one of those mums. You are a card carrying t shirt wearing one of those mums. Yes, I wonder what was going on there for that midwife? She's obviously struggling. She's obviously got some issues herself.

Ellie Warner  08:44

Yeah, definitely

Emma Pickett  08:45

She was worried you weren't flexible, I'm guessing

Ellie Warner  08:48

Yes, and I think it's probably more because I was choosing to birth outside of guidelines. I suppose for her it might have been a bit of a relief, because she probably saw that formula as a little bit of insurance policy against it's one less chance of something going wrong, like the baby having low blood sugars and needing to transfer in. You know? Yeah, that is what a place I saw it coming from, like, as more of a relief to her, not as a dig at me, 

Emma Pickett  09:22

yeah, yeah, that's obviously what was going on her, that particular issue. But still not, not a great moment, though. And did you end up using that formula?

Ellie Warner  09:30

No, I didn't end up using it. I ended up, I think I gave it to the I ended up donating it to the hospital to, like, the neonatal ward, something like that, but yeah, thankfully I didn't need to use it. So that were amazing.

Emma Pickett  09:44

Did you do any antenatal expressing of colostrum? Did anyone talk to you about that? 

Ellie Warner  09:49

So it did get talked about to me, and people were saying that I must do it, that I must but I tried, and I didn't get anything. So I was actually quite worried about. That, like that, were a bit of a cause of anxiety that I had. Didn't have these syringes of, like, colostrum harvested, and I was, like, getting really stressed out, like, trying to get it out. And I did, like, used to try every day, but it just got to the point where I thought, right, I can't control this, so I've just got to go with it and just trust in my body that when my bed is here, that it'll work out. 

Emma Pickett  10:24

There's a lot of pressure to do antenatal expressing, and some people think it should happen as a sort of normal course for everybody. And some people think, oh no, just focus on those people who've got, you know, gestational diabetes or diabetes for another reason. But actually, as you as you say, as your experience was, for some people, it just does not happen. Some people cannot get one drip, or literally get one drip, and it can feel rubbish, because you you sort of have this misimpression that that's going to reflect, reflect your supply when money is born, and that's going to, you know, that's a message for your whole breastfeeding experience. And it's completely not the case at all.

Ellie Warner  10:58

I think I had a glisten on my nipple, that was it. But when I got the glisten, I was like, Oh my God,

Emma Pickett  11:05

there's milk. Either don't lose it. Where is it? Get a syringe. Oh my god, it's gone away. Get it sucked back in. Yeah, yeah. Like that moment is not, not a relaxing moment for many people, but yeah, even people who don't get a glisten, that does not mean you won't be a successful breastfeeder. And obviously, really was a successful breastfeeder. 

Ellie Warner  11:24

So yeah, wasn't a drop, it was a glisten, a shine, like the Oh, is Yeah, I think there's some moisture there. 

Emma Pickett  11:32

Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm glad that you managed to sort of talk yourself around and realize that it was causing you stress, and that you decided to stop, and you'd had, you know, you realized that that wasn't going to be the the full story. So you obviously were doing quite a little bit of reading yourself. And yeah, even though you didn't do classes, you obviously had done a bit of preparation. What kind of stuff were you reading? Do you remember? It was a while ago now, but do you remember what, what were you looking at for your research?

Ellie Warner  11:55

So one of my friends actually had a doula who, in York, we didn't have the same doula, but her doula actually had done like, a pre recorded, like session on breastfeeding, like, which she wanted me to watch, to, like, give her a little bit of feedback. And I watched that. So I suppose the main things that I were focusing on and learning about antenatally was about Golden Hour, skin to skin, giving myself the best chances to initiate breastfeeding. So I suppose that was kind of my focus. Yeah, not, not so much about beyond that, really, yeah, but it's more about nice,

Emma Pickett  12:35

actually, I like that emphasis, yeah. It's really difficult to get the balance right with antenatal education, because some people are sort of like, you know, why didn't anyone tell me about mastitis? You know? Why didn't I understand what tongue tie was? And it's, it's very difficult, because when people have got the birth in front of them, they don't necessarily absorb all that more detailed information, and they're very kind of focused. And your birth obviously went to plan you when you look when you look back on it. How would you describe it? 

Ellie Warner  13:00

Well, it couldn't have gone any better. Like, I'm so lucky that, you know, I got to stay at home. My birth was, like, really straightforward, considering that I had gestational diabetes too, but I was like, so I was on medication as well. I was on Metformin and insulin, and I was like, really, really, like, a diet controlled it, like I exercised every day, just gentle exercise, like going for walks every day, like I was going swimming and things like that. So I was like, probably, like, at my healthiest, like when I was pregnant, like, perhaps, you know, like with my with what I was eating, and, like, moving my body and stuff and like, I actually considering our gestational diabetes, I enjoyed being pregnant, and I enjoyed my labor as well. I'd just done a lot of like preparation on like what to expect, and I thought, if at any moment I need to or want to, I can go to hospital, but the best environment I know is going to be for me at home.

Emma Pickett  14:00

Yeah, yeah. So so glad it worked out. That sounds gorgeous, and yeah, and you had to do LA and sound like you knew a lot of other people who are necessarily doula types, if you don't mind me saying other people weren't necessarily breastfeeding. So what made you decide to get a doula, and how did you go about doing that?

Ellie Warner  14:19

So basically, so my Doula was doing a free hypnobirthing taster session, and I'd heard about hypnobirthing. I thought, oh yeah. Like, you know, I'll give that a go maybe. And one of I'm a hairdresser, and one of my clients had mentioned to me, are you going to get a doula? And I was like, oh no, oh no, I don't need a doula. Like, you know, it's a hippy dippy thing. It's for like that. That's for the mums of northly. It's like having a doula, not, you know, working class mums. I would never, I don't, never even thought I'd have been able to afford one either. But basically, she, the client, planted the seed in my mind, and I. Checked out this doulas website from the free hitting the birthing session because I couldn't attend the that particular session. And I thought, I bet she does others. And so I looked at a website and saw that she that about the full doula package. And I was like, Oh my God, I need a doula. And my partner wasn't necessarily on board at first, and he thought it were weird, and he thought it were hippie ish, and you should give birth in hospital. And, like, it's all dramatic, but like, he managed to get on board, and, like, I had him in some of the sessions, like prepping, and then actually, he said, like, she were worth awaiting gold, like when she were there, like at the birth. So because, like, you you often hear, like, the stories about, like, you know, I knew nothing about giving birth. So not my partner. He knows even less. He only knows, like, what is he's on television. So yes, it really helps to educate him as well. And like it, it was just, you know, I'd definitely do it again. And I'd have, I'd recommend getting a doula to everybody. And even though, like, do people do think that it's a bit weird, but like, when I tell them about it, they like, like, Oh yeah, yeah, that does sound good. And to me, like, obviously, everybody has their own priorities. But like, the price of the doula were, like, a price of a holiday. And I thought, Well, what do I want a week in 10 or eight forward? Or rather, like, have somebody support me my birth. And that's our way deal,

Emma Pickett  16:24

yeah, to look at it, yes. So it's just interesting. You talk about North Leeds as being the doula types. I'm in North London. We've definitely got doula types around here. So dealers are so ordinary, they're practically kind of standing outside your doorstep in case you give birth. But it's really great that you've lots of what you're saying about your story is just kind of like fate, almost. It's like you found this link and your client made a comment in the salon, and you just, you just kind of gradually found your way to to the hippy dippy life. And welcome, yeah, hippy dippy life, or as I call the biologically normal life of caring for your baby and breastfeeding and giving birth in the right circumstances. I mean, good on your partner. Because actually, I imagine he doesn't know, have a lot of experience of home births, and actually, you know, obviously you did a great job of communicating and he wanted to support you. But you know, quite often it's the partner that's that's final sort of psychological barrier to getting a home birth happening. So good for him.

Ellie Warner  17:22

Yeah. Poor man, he does put up with me in my crazy schemes, like, a lot of the time, but like, I basically said to him, like, you're either on board or you're not. Do you know I thought I said, it's my body. I'm the one giving birth. It's my decision. So I listened to his concerns. But also then tried to educate him and rationalize him, but ultimately, I said it's my decision, and probably maybe other people aren't like that in their relationships, but I'm not the type of person to ask permission from somebody. So if I want to do it, then I'm doing it. So I'm a little bit I don't know, maybe I don't know. I won't say inconsiderate to my partner, but like, I'm not willing to compromise on, like, what I believe is right for me and my body, you know,

Emma Pickett  18:16

yeah, fair enough. I don't think that's so. I don't think that's being inconsiderate. I don't think that's being bolshy. I think, yeah, absolutely the way it should be when we're talking about birth and breastfeeding and and, you know, being a mum, you obviously you get to make that call. And if you don't, that's when great sadness ends up happening, because people don't get to follow their gut. And you obviously have that really strong gut that he must also understand that once, once you've got your mind set on something, it's not going to do much good to try and talk you out of it. Yeah, definitely. So you had that really positive birth experience. Do you remember your first breastfeed? Do you remember your really early breastfeeding? 

Ellie Warner  18:50

Yeah, I've actually got a picture of our first breastfeed as well. And I gave birth in the water at home, and I moved from the water to the toilet to birth the placenta and Ezra was still attached to me. Nat came and cut the umbilical cord, and then I sort of like hobbled over to the bed, and then that's where me and Ezra had our first breastfeed. So it wasn't it must have been within like the first 10 minutes after he was born, because he was born, I held him to my chest. I didn't breastfeed him in the pool, but then I started having these contractions, obviously to Bertha percent. I was like, whoa. Nobody told me about these. I can't get comfy. I need to get out. So I needed to move. The placenta came out, the card were cut, then went to the bed. Then we had our first breastfeed. And I was like, is he doing it? Am I doing it? Am I doing it right? And midwife was like, yeah, yeah, you doing it. You doing it right? And, you know, it looks like he's got a good latch. And, you know, away, away, you go, really. And we then basically stayed in the bed for like, the rest of the day. I did get out, so we had, like. I wanted, like, undisturbed, Golden Hour, like skin to skin, so we did all that. And then I think my sister must have come round when he was, like, a few hours old, which is, like, one of the amazing things about having a home birth is you can have anyone there whenever you want. She brought me a McDonald's. It was brilliant. And then she forced me to get in the shower because, like, her old jelly legs. So I was like, I can't get a shower. And she was like, go get in the shower. You'll feel better. And then I had a shower, got into my pajamas, and then just stayed in bed for like, the rest of the day, until the next day, just, like, just basically because I had the gestational diabetes. I was like, right? This baby is feeding constantly. I'm going to feed, feed, feeding, because I was so worried about having to transfer into hospital and the baby having low blood sugars, I did not want that to happen. And what is the remedy for a low blood sugar is eating. So I thought I need to make sure I'm feeding this baby as we bottle a pre made formula on standby and sterilized the bottle, just in case. But fortunately, I didn't need to do it.

21:04

Brilliant. So you just tell me the sort of logistics of it. You were taking insulin and metformin during your pregnancy, yeah, and you were doing diet control. How does that first week then work after the birth? Do you carry on taking that, those drugs? No being tested, they just stop it completely.

Ellie Warner  21:19

It's you. Basically, as soon as the placenta is born, your gestational diabetes goes away, unless you had type two diabetes before you were pregnant and you didn't know but you have a blood test at your six week postnatal check, and it tells you whether you're diabetic or not, and I wasn't. So they basically say, as soon as the placenta is born, you can just go back to eating whatever you want. You don't have to take medication. And that's what, that's what I did. And like, you know, I were absolutely starving as well, like in the first few weeks of breastfeeding, so I could definitely, like, polish off like, a full packet of biscuits. So my partner is type one diabetic, and he mainly diet controls his so it were great. When I were pregnant, he was so supportive. Like, you know, we basically ate the same things. It's not like I had this partner that were eating chocolate while I couldn't. But then as soon as I gave birth, he didn't see me for dust. Then I was like, sorry, Nat, you're in this on your own now. 

Emma Pickett  22:22

Oh, well, it all worked out brilliantly. So three cheers for packets of biscuits. 

Emma Pickett  22:27

A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book published by Pinter Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE10, Makes Milk Pickett Emma 10. Thanks

Emma Pickett  23:13

And did you have any sort of early breastfeeding problems with Ezra? Any sort of pain or discomfort or anything?

Ellie Warner  23:19

So I had been told when Ezra was born by the midwife, oh, he looks like he's got a little bit of a tongue tie. And I was like, Oh, right. Oh, okay, okay. I'd heard about tongue tie because my sister's little boy had tongue tie. Like I said he was formula fed. His tongue tie was so severe that, like it was a he even had weight loss. Even though he was born mula fed, I remember, like, when we used to be feeding in bottles, like the milk could be just like spilling out other sides of his mouth. So I'd heard about tongue tie, and I had said, Oh, please, can you make a referral to me for the infant feeding team, like straight away, like on the day that midwife and she did it.

Emma Pickett  24:00

So it was the midwife, was that at your birth who mentioned tongue tie? Was it? 

Ellie Warner  24:03

Yeah, yes. So obviously, like, they're not tongue Thai practitioners, so can't officially diagnose, but I thought, right, I want to know anything that's going to be in my way. I want to tackle it head on, not muddled through and end up struggling and you don't know what's going on. So I'd been told that he'd had a little bit of a tongue tie. And then when the midwives come to check, must be easy. When the seven days old and the check about, like, the birth weight, like, how much birth weight they've lost, they were, like, really impressed, because he'd lost, say, like, you know, less than 8% which they say, like, anything is it above eight or 10 they're worried about, and then anything below eight, 

Emma Pickett  24:48

yeah, so usually we have 10% as a threshold of concern, and if an 8% is certainly completely within normal range, yeah, we worried about there. 

Ellie Warner  24:58

So, like, Oh, but I have been told. He's got a tongue tie. And they were like, Oh, you're obviously doing really well, because, you know, he's not lost much of his birth weight, so, you know, just keep doing what you're doing. You're doing all right. And at that point, I still was a little bit clueless, like I was like, trying to find out, like, little tidbits about breastfeeding, like, how long should I be feeding him on each side. How often should I be feeding him? And I've done the whole thing, like getting the app where you're timing your feeds, and did I do it on me, left, on me, right? And oh, well, he's been on it for half an hour. It should be it should have had enough now. So I was kind of like muddling through a bit bewildered, not sure whether we were doing it right or wrong. But obviously he was gaining weight, great. So that was, you know, must have been doing something right, that's but, like, literally, I were muddling through, like, on bolting, 

Emma Pickett  25:52

you say, muddling through, but you obviously were doing really well from what you're describing. And, yeah, I think everybody feels a bit like they're muddling through at that point. I don't think that's an unusual feeling, but I can appreciate it's a bit overwhelming. So you've got the tongue tie referral, and someone checked his tongue

Ellie Warner  26:08

No, no, so we didn't get a tongue tie referral at all. So basically, so the infant feeding team contacted me because I'd asked to be referred. And I think, like the infant feeding team in Leeds, you can be referred ourselves, prefer at any point in the first six weeks of your baby's life, anything after six weeks, you can go take a running jump, 

Emma Pickett  26:28

I think, yeah, sadly, that is not unusual in some areas. It's just like six weeks one day you're on your own love, yes. Um, not easy, is it? 

Ellie Warner  26:36

Yes. So I think Ezra must have been about three weeks old then and the infant feeding team phoned me and said, Are you doing really well? It's the weight gains, fine. We're not worried at all. Like you, we don't need to come and see you. But like, I was obviously it were cluster feeding, like, which is normal, but like, it would be feeding sometimes for like, 45 minutes to an hour at a time, and it basically wanting to be attached to the boob constantly, which I know, like his cluster feeding and normal behavior, but like, I felt like I were breastfeeding 24/7 and I thought it's got to be this tongue tie. It would click in. I never had any nipple pain. Sometimes his latch would be slurping, like, on and off and like, how I would describe that. I think I did get a breastfeed, bit of breastfeeding aversion then, because it didn't feel comfortable. And I did swear I know how you feel about silver nipple cups that you don't you don't love them.

Emma Pickett  27:38

Oh, I feel you better. Know, like, well, they have a place. It's just overuse is the problem. When people are relying on them all the time and wearing them for hours on end, that's when I've seen problems crop up. But if they helped you, if you're going to tell me a story how they helped you, I'm really glad to hear it. 

Ellie Warner  27:53

Yes, yeah, yeah. So I know that's that's what you would say as well. But equally, like you said, they have a time and a place, but I don't know whether it's because I had silver nipple cups on that I never had any nipple pain or saw nipples or anything, but

Emma Pickett  28:09

that wasn't the that wasn't the cups. I'm gonna say that I have no shame in saying that. That was if you if you have positioning issues, you're going to be in pain, and wearing a cup in between feeds is not going to solve that problem. So if you were comfortable during the feed, I know you took the slurpiness, but essentially the nipples not coming out misshapen, if the skin is not breaking down, if you're not getting damaged. 

Ellie Warner  28:33

I did have a squashed nipple, okay, but never any pain, bleeding, cracked nipples, anything like that. But Ezra did also have, he had torticollis. Is that, what it's called where, basically where they it. He preferred and favored one side, where he laid, and he always turned his head, so I'm thinking now the left. He always turned his head to the left. And even if I could try to put it back, it'd always go back to the left. And I'd try put a blanket there to keep it there, his head would still move right. So this was and he was starting to develop a flat head on one side. So I'd been fobbed off by the infant feeding team for tongue tight. So I decided to go private, and I went to milk matters, and basically, Charlotte took one look at him and said, This baby's got a tongue tie. You've been told he's got a bit of a tongue tie. There's no such thing as a bit of a tongue tie. They've either got a tongue tie or they haven't, and this baby's got one. Would you like it cut in? I was like, yes please. But also, in the meantime, another thing that had happened, my friend who lives in York, who had a doula, had been to see a cranial osteopath with her baby, so I did the same with Ezra. So no, no, that sometimes cranial osteopathy can go hand in hand. Yep. So basically, it had a session before the tie was cut. He had the tie cut, and then we had about five more sessions, after which I do believe straightened his neck out and relieved the tension in his neck. So while I'm going into this much detail, the reason why is I'm just giving a bit of a backstory, because during the time, at the time when Ezra had his tie cut, I had a blocked duct. I had a lump in my boob. So while I never had sore nipples, I had a lump in my boob. And because I wwasn’t getting good information, I was just getting my information off a tick tock saying about using a hacker pump with Epsom salts in and hot water. And I feel like that. Everything that I would do is to try and get rid of this blocked duct. Were probably, like, making it worse. And Charlotte was like, Yeah, this, this block duct, this, you know, she tried to, like, express it and clear it for me, but it just, it was stubborn. It was not going anywhere. I could not get rid of it. And I was going to breastfeeding group at this point as well. Like trying to get help with my latch, because I felt like that, getting his tongue tie cut was going to be a miracle cure, and it wasn't. But I'd heard the tale of when babes have a tongue tie learning to feed. It's like learning to run with your shoelaces tied, and then you have your shoelaces cut, and then you got to learn to run again. 

Emma Pickett  31:23

That's a good way of describing it. Yeah, I've never heard that before. Can I steal that shoelaces analogy? Because that's a really good way of saying it. Yes, yeah. So plus you've also got the Nick neck issue on top of that as well. So even if the tongue tie has been resolved, you obviously had that extra complication. 

Ellie Warner  31:38

Yes. So I feel like what caused this blocked duct was, obviously he wasn't removing milk effectively from my left breast. And the reason being were, I think, because of his neck issue and because of his tongue tie. So the left breast was the opposite side to what he was comfortable rests in his neck. Yeah. So that would just like, totally make sense. 

Emma Pickett  32:07

Now, Yep, totally makes 

Ellie Warner  32:08

but then I thought, Well, why? I thought, God, why did the infant feeding team like, Oh, he's putting on weight, like, he's fine. And then actually, I thought, Well, do you know what about me? I'm not okay. My boobs are not okay. I've got a block stuck because I've got mastitis, and I did was also getting a bit I did get so I had this block duct. I went to the GP, I got prescribed antibiotics, and it turned out to be leaving the wrong type of antibiotic that I was on after I went to go and see the breast clinic. So I'm getting even like further ahead here now, but so the blocked duct ended up turning into an abscess. So got antibiotics from the GPS, and I've been taking them for like, 10 days, and it was not getting any better. It was getting worse. It was getting hotter. I had like, what can only be called, like, Mount Vesuvius on my breast, but they didn't, they didn't say it was mastitis or anything like that. And I never actually felt ill or feverish or sick at all. I just had this, like, red hot lump, like, on my boob. And I went back to the GPs, and I say, Do you think it's an abscess? She, like, took one look of it, got my boob in her hands and, like, gave it a bit of a jiggle, and says, No, I don't think it's an abscess. Literally, lo and behold, the next day, Mount Vesuvius erupted out of my skin. I woke up at like five in the morning, like, in loads of pain. It were really sore, and I could visibly see it, like erupting, like coming out. 

Emma Pickett  33:36

That is scary, that is scary for someone to experienc. I know it's not easy to see your skin kind of breaking through.

Ellie Warner  33:43

Yeah, yeah. So, so my boob was really sore. I was scared to feed off it. I will cry in our wreck, and I ended up engorged. And by this point, I had actually got help from a private ibclc. So she was just like, at the other end of the phone telling me to, like, go to hospital, helping me see if you can actually read off it, you must hand Express like, don't get engorged. And anyway, I ended up in a and e like that evening, because I'd been I went to, I got an appointment with the out of hours GP, who turned out to be a locum, who ended up, didn't know what else to do but send me to a and e, then obviously, like you waiting in A and E for triage and etc, etc, and the staffing. And I had Ezra with me, like newborn breastfeeding him in the waiting area. 

Emma Pickett  34:34

How old is he at this point? Do you remember how many? How many weeks old is he now?

Ellie Warner  34:37

Um, maybe six weeks old. Okay. And then till one of the kind members of staff, like, spotted me, was like, Are you breastfeeding? Let me take it to a side room, like, where it's quieter, like where you're not in the middle of a&e, LGI. I know we're at St James's, actually, which is like a really busy, busy hospital in Leeds. And then staff in a&e, like, so kind and like, so lovely, but they. Basically said to me that the breast clinic stays open till seven, and by the time I'd been triaged, it was half seven, so I'd literally just missed the breast clinic. But if they said, Oh, it's probably because you've seen a locum, they said the locum won't know to refer you. Could have referred you straight to the breast clinic. He wouldn't have had to come here. And because I were in so much pain and like the ABS was oozing, they did say to me, we can offer you a bed for the night if you want. But I didn't want to, like, I just wanted to go home. And God bless my partner, I didn't even want to go home to him, like, I went, I went and stopped at my mum's. I was like, I'm so sorry. Please don't be offended now, but I just want to stay at my mum's and I stayed on my mum's surfer, and then having so much pain, I could hardly move. I, like, and take So, nah, had an accident a few years ago, and it got a brain injury, and, like, suffers really badly, like, like, with fatigue, even though he masks it really well and he doesn't admit it. But I was so like, I thought, I need to have him on his air game tomorrow, have him up all night with me. So I thought, right, I'm going to my mum's. Sometimes you just need your Mum, don't you, and I needed my mum at that moment in time. And then I went back the next day to the breast clinic. I had to have the abscess aspirated by needle, which was luckily that that's what they managed to do, and that I didn't need to have surgery or anything like that. But everybody, like, in a and e and in the breast clinic was so kind to me. I were, like, an absolute state, because my boob was in pain and on fire and, like, huge. Like, the nurse went to touch it. She were an advanced nudge practitioner, and I was like, she prodded it. I was like, Don't touch it. Don't touch it. 

Emma Pickett  36:43

That came on really fast, didn't it? Just the day before, you're at the GP, going, yeah, yeah, jiggle away, love. And now the next, and then you're in agony. 

Ellie Warner  36:50

Like 48 hours later, it's amazing how body works, like, not wanting it, not wanting to be touched. And then she managed to, she literally, I think, just applied a slight bit of pressure, and it was oozing, like, how much pus is  coming out of it? It's like, unreal. And I was like, you can't, you can't touch chick. You can't touch you. She was like, I'm gonna laughter. I was like, no, no, no, no, you can't. She's like, let me go and get my colleague So Shane would allow me to go and get a consultant. Because, like, literally, I was not calm at all. I was really, like, panicking, stressed, scared, in pain. Anyway, they managed to talk me around and get me to do it. And the sprayed, like this full can of, I was, like, put the full can on of, like, the freezing spray to, like, numb it. And I didn't watch, wow, they were doing it.

Emma Pickett  37:36

So they were kind of massaging. So as well as the aspiration, there was a bit of sort of massage as well?

Ellie Warner  37:42

Yeah, massive aspiration and massaging. And I was just like, laid on the bed, you know, people holding my hand. I think Ezra was laid across my lap, so he was with me, like, the whole time. And then I had it dressed, and then that were it. Then they sent me on my way. But like, literally, once I had the aspiration done, the relief that I felt was immense, like it's it was sore, don't get me wrong, like the skin was sore, but I didn't have that pressure and that pain, and it just felt so much better. And like everybody in the staff, it's like, and then I think because I had the abscess, all my friends and family and peers all thought that I was an absolute lunatic for breastfeeding and for still carrying on breastfeeding. Like, what are you doing? Like you've got this abscess, like you're in pain. Like, why are you doing this? But then, like everybody in the hospital, they were like, keep on breastfeeding. The worst thing you can do is stop just keep on. You don't want to get engorged. Keep that milk, like flowing through. So then I was like, the hospital have told me to, they've The doctor said that,

Emma Pickett  38:46

How did it feel to breastfeed on that side in those in those first few hours? 

Ellie Warner  38:50

So like I said, the nipple wasn't sore. The nipple was fine. It was just above my nipple. And I've actually got a scar now on my breast from the abscess. But, like, it was actually okay. It was just like, obviously, you know, like, newborn babies are quite handsy and smacking your boob. I just had to hold his hand so he didn't smack that boob, because it was just a little bit sore. And then it took a few weeks to heal, and basically, I just had to shower it myself every day. Change the dressing myself every day. Shower it myself. Press my boob in the shower to see, like, you know, if anything else would come out. And I did go back to the breast clinic a couple of times for like reassurance, but it ended up like healing fine and healing on its own. But it did end up like, milk ended up even coming out of the hole that the abscess had burst out of, which was, like, really, really bizarre. 

Emma Pickett  39:48

It was probably quite handy, though, nice antibacterial properties. I mean, when people have, when people are left with an open incision, milk bathing it is not necessarily a problem, but I can appreciate it's a bit freaky, if you're not used to it, 

Ellie Warner  39:59

So I had to change the dressing a couple of times a day, because it'd get soaked through, like with milk coming out of the abscess site. Yeah, so I don't know whether that's a bit graphic? 

Emma Pickett  40:08

No. I mean, listen, people will have stuck with that, because people who listen to this are on, are on Team boob, and they want to hear all the details. And I really appreciate you going into so much detail, because I think it's really important for people to understand what that feels like. And you talked about, you know, obviously the underlying cause was probably something to do with Ezra is positioning, and his in his torticoLlis. So while you're recovering from the abscess, that's when you're also getting the cranial osteopathy and support from that as well, which is obviously all private. 

Ellie Warner  40:38

It's not funded by the NHS and like, which I think look at the issues at this torticollis has caused, like, a breast abscess. Like, why is this not a priority? Do you know what I mean? Why did I feel like I got fobbed off at every turn and like, the only help that I got was from getting, like, private support and like, going to breastfeeding group, which is run by volunteers and people saying, oh, you should be able to get that looked at. 

Emma Pickett  41:03

I know when you describe it like that, it does sound bananas, doesn't it? It's volunteers or it's private, and that is not an option for people. So of course, people are not going to carry on breastfeeding. That's, I mean, this is why breastfeeding rates are so low in the UK. It's no massive mission. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what you said at the beginning about how the feeding team didn't really pick up on the torticollis. It's, it's, it's my experience that a lot of people just aren't really looking out for it. They're just not familiar with it. They just don't really understand the impact it might have on breastfeeding. And yeah, it is a crime, but, 

Ellie Warner  41:32

and it's such a common issue because, like, we didn't realize, like, because you only know what you know at the time, like, with my sister's baby went with her first baby. He had it as well. So he had the severe tongue tie. He had torticollis. So he had, he has got a flat head on one side, because we never got it seen. So because, like, she were 21 I didn't have any kids, you know, we'd never even heard of it or knew it was a thing. And, you know, health visitors are midwives. Like nobody said anything, and he never crawled. He were a bum shuffler, so I don't know whether maybe, had he have had some osteopathy that that would have helped him, like, in that way. I mean, he's 10 now, and I don't know whether it's ever had any lasting effects on him, but we were just like, oh my god, he had tension in the neck, and we didn't even know, but it's so it's so common. Like, why would a baby not have tension in the neck, like when they've been cooped up in your womb for nine months and fast out of a birth canal? Do you know stiff neck? 

Emma Pickett  42:30

It's actually more common than tongue tie. But yeah, everyone talks about tongue tie, and we're all talking about that in our social media, but it's not often you come across people talking about torticollis. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the lovely lady Nicola, who joined me for my episode on daughter Collis, she's got an account that I will put in the show notes. In case anyone hasn't listened to that episode, I would refer you to listen to it, because it's in the world of breastfeeding torticollis is so important to think about. Yeah, really key. So, you said the cranio osteopathy helped. You feel that did make a difference, and you stopped being flattened and squashed. Breastfeeding got easier?

Ellie Warner  43:06

yeah, stops being flattened and squashed. But like I said, after the tongue tie was cut, I thought it were going to be a miracle cure, but then I went through all the the abscess stuff, but like he was doing, the slurping nickel, the popping on and off, the clicking and like, while it wasn't painful, it felt irritating, like it was annoying, like I felt like it was sucking on spaghetti. So I would, I tried my best and persevered, and we just got there in the end. And like, now it's all a distant memory, like I'm reliving it now, like talking to you, but I just never even think about those times at all,

Emma Pickett  43:43

and you've got you went to peer support, and that's how, eventually you started training as a peer supporter. Tell me about that journey. When did you go to your first yes support group? 

Ellie Warner  43:50

So I actually went to my first peer support group, like when Ezra was three weeks old. So and I've been going like regularly ever since, and how I ended up becoming a peer supporter was the ibclc who was private, who I got help from in the early days. She was like, I think you'd be an amazing peer supporter. I think you should go for it. I know Suzanne, who's the Peer Support Coordinator, because the lady who was an ibclc used to be a health visitor in our area, so she knew her she was like, I'll send her an email, and I think you should do it. And then Suzanne got in touch with me and said, when the next like cohort of peer support training was going to be. And I was like, oh, in an hour. And Shall I do it? Shall I not? I'm on maternity leave. My head rolling a spin. And then I thought, You know what? No, you only regret the things that you don't do. So I thought, I'm going to do it. And I'm so passionate about breastfeeding that I wanted to help other women to be able to advocate for themselves and get the support when they need it. So now, when I'm at peer support. Yeah, and there's ladies coming, like, with problems, and they need help from the infant feeding team. And like, self refer and like, email them. I was like, email them every day. Don't take no for an answer. But, you know, keep on emailing them until the deal with you. And like, I basically, like, signpost them and help them. Like, where to go to get support, and like, try and give them the confidence and the strength to be able to do it. Because one of the reasons why I ended up going, like, private, and obviously, I'm privileged, because not everybody has that option, but I just thought, I ain't got the fight in me. Yeah, I just didn't have the fight in me. I just thought I just, you know, I'm exhausted. I've got a brand new baby, like, I'm overwhelmed. You know, I whereas, like, when I were pregnant, before I had a baby, do you know I really had the fight in me to, like, get my home birth and everything, but like, once I'd given birth, and it's like, the shock of having a baby, I just didn't have that fight. So now I'm like, I want to help new mums not feel like how I did. 

Emma Pickett  46:00

I bet you're brilliant as a peer supporter. I mean, you've got great communication skills, but you've also just got that no nonsense. Come on. You can do it kind of vibe, which I'm sure makes such a difference. I bet they're so grateful for your support. You really went through it though, in your early weeks, didn't you? I mean, having an abscess, you know, in the first few weeks is in intense yes and and, you know, well done for surviving that and getting through that, but I bet that experience makes you an extra special peer supporter. You probably slightly freaked out your peer support group, I'd have thought, because they probably didn't see a lot of abscesses, and they're also really valuable for them to see your experience and see you coming through that. So you were doing your training while you were recovering from the abscess. What point did you start training?

Ellie Warner  46:41

I started training in September of last year. So September 23. So Ezra was born in May. So he was, like, four or five months old, okay, so and I used to take him to the they were a crush on but I could have him on my knee, like in the peer support. And they said that the things that I was the person with the youngest baby that's ever done the peer support training, so, so that were good. And I absolutely just, I just absolutely loved it. I'm just like, now I'm I've been bitten by the breastfeeding bug. I'm totally obsessed. Listen to your podcast all the time. Like, you know breastfeeding is my religion. 

Emma Pickett  47:21

Now I know. What is it about breastfeeding? It's so weird. The way it sucks us in. There's something. And there'll be people listening to this, nodding, going, yep, there's something. There's something about it. When you start learning about it, it's just so powerful that helping people to, you know, helping people to meet their breastfeeding goals, the act of breastfeeding is so powerful. The science behind it is so amazing. You just can't stop once you, once you you know, it's like Pringles. Once you start, you can't stop. And it goes on. It just goes on and on, and then, isn't there's so much more to learn. So you're doing, are you? You're back at work now, hairdressing.

Ellie Warner  47:55

I'm back at work now. Yeah. So I tend to go to a breastfeeding group once a week, either on like a Monday or a Wednesday, and then I just fit in my work around it. So I actually went back to work when Ezra was four months old, and he started with a childminder. So I used to express and he would take a bottle of expressed breast milk while I was working. But then now I'd probably say when he got to about 9 10, months old, that's when I stopped sending express breast milk with him to the child minders, and he would just eat food through the day, and then we'd catch up on a night time, like on of an evening. And I did used to have to express like my boo, my breasts would feel full, and I'd Express for comfort. But now I don't need I don't express at all really rarely, like I went away for a night, and I was away for two Two Days and One Night, and I think I had to express once while I was aware. So it's like, for me, it's like, really regulated and like, settled down. 

Emma Pickett  49:07

Now, yeah, bodies are clever, aren't they? So after you had the abscess, did you find that you were always a bit worried about something like that happening again? How did you get on with, sort of your anxiety levels and feeling relaxed?

Ellie Warner  49:20

You know, I never worried about it happening again, to be honest, I think because I was just so relieved to be better and that it happened, and because I've done the peer support training as well. Like, I feel like, so educated and so empowered that I don't feel like I have any anxieties about my own breastfeeding like at all now. And I've never, like I've never had any other issues since, not to say that it won't happen touch wood, that it doesn't, but I've never had any blocked ducks. I've never had mastitis since, and I just basically, I don't feed to a schedule or anything like that. I just feed on demand, and my body is just, just did.

Emma Pickett  50:01

Oh, so great. I guess if the underlying issues were resolved, which was probably the total honest, there's no reason what, why it would have come back. What's, what's his night like at the moment, at 16 months?

Ellie Warner  50:12

So he usually goes down to sleep at about eight o'clock ish, and I usually feed him to sleep, but he will go to sleep like his dad can put him to bed sometimes, but if I'm there, I like to put him to bed, but sometimes his dad likes to put him to bed. And obviously he doesn't get breastfed to sleep then and then he wakes up at some point in the night. I don't check the time, because I think, well, once I've checked the time, that's it. I'm awake. Then, 

Emma Pickett  50:39

yeah, absolutely not looking at the clock. 

Ellie Warner  50:43

yeah, I decided I made an informed choice a long time ago to stop looking at the clock. Don't look at any apps. Don't look at the clock. Just get on with it and just do it. So yeah. So he wakes up at some point in the night, so he goes down in his own court. His cot is in our bedroom, and then at some point in the night, we start to go sleep or bed share like he comes into bed with me, and then he feeds. I try to sleep, and he just helps himself to a boob whenever he wants it. He did. Used to sleep in his own next to me crib up until about the age of four months old. But then after four months, that's when we started co sleeping, because he just would not settle and go back down. And I know that like four months, it's like the four month busses in it so and four month regressions and what have you. So then ever since then, we've co slept. And then a lot of my peers and a lot of people who I know babies are all in their own bedrooms now, and Ezra is still in our room at 1516, months. But my house is over three stories, and my bedrooms in the dormer and what will be Ezra bedroom one day is downstairs, and I think I'm too lazy to get out of bed and go downstairs to his bedroom like when he wakes up in the night.

Emma Pickett  52:00

Fair enough. That's not lazy. That's not lazy. I mean, safety issue as much as anything. I mean, you'd be falling down the stairs. I mean, it's not it's not just about being lazy. 

Ellie Warner  52:09

Well, yeah, true, but I mean, like, I'm too tired to get out of bed at that time in the night. It's just so much easier and cozier to just shove her in, shove him in bed with me, and my partner don't mind either. He's not bothered at all. He gets kicked in the back and snapped and all sorts. We actually call him like, he's like, a little rhino in bed, because he's like, I'd put in and like, you know, trying to find the booby. But I just think that sometimes I have days like, where I'm really tired, and then I'm like, just wishes room would sleep through all night, you know? But, you know, everybody has good and bad days, don't they, so I don't take I don't I would never quit on a bad day, you know? I just I when I think about, Oh, should I start to try weaning now, I think it makes me feel a bit panic. It's like, oh no, no, no. And then I think, no, I'm definitely not ready. I don't want to wean him, which he does naturally. Like, now breastfeeds a lot less. And, like I said, we have times apart, like, where he's like, you know, I'm away for a night, but then, like, we just basically, then when we're together, pick back up where we left off. Yeah, so I think I left him for like, yeah, it were two nights, and my partner was like, Oh, I think, what if he forgets about breastfeeding? I'm like, it will. He won't forget about breastfeeding to her,

Emma Pickett  53:32

not at this age, not very, very, very unlikely, yes. So you haven't really got a plan about how long you're going to breastfeed for. You're not somebody who said, Oh, it's going to be two years, it's going to be 18 months. You're just kind of letting it flow and see what happens?

Ellie Warner  53:46

 I'm just going to go with the flow, like I said, naturally. Now he's breastfeeding a lot less than what I used to. And if I think about that too much, that makes me feel a bit emotional. Do you know, like I'm like, Oh, I wish you were a bit more of a booby monster, but 

Emma Pickett  54:03

sounds like you've let him lead it, though it's not, yeah, it sounds like it's been, very much been his choice. And, you know, even when you went back to work, obviously, you know, you were still co sleeping, he was still, you know, offering him milk. He's he's been able to decide whether he wants to breastfeed or not, 

Ellie Warner  54:17

Which he definitely does in the night time now. So, yeah, feeding to sleep. Like, I'm definitely not ready to give that one up. Feeding in the night. Some ask me on another day, I might say, Yeah, but like today, but today, you know it, I suppose it can't have been a bad night last night.

Emma Pickett  54:37

And if you were breastfeeding when he was two, that would feel okay? 

Ellie Warner  54:41

Oh yeah. 

Emma Pickett  54:43

Three? I mean, you're not someone that you haven't got a goal in mind or a cut off in there, you know? 

Ellie Warner  54:46

So obviously, as he's getting older, you get all the questions you get, a lot of people asking, how long you're going to breastfeed for? When are you going to stop? And I would say, well, World Health Organization recommends until two. So I'm hoping. Up in to get two and beyond. Yeah, two and beyond, yeah. So I'm hoping I'll be happy to get to two, but do you know if it happened naturally before then, which I don't think it will, because he does still love his booby, then that'd be it. But, yeah, I'm just going to happy, happy to be keeping on going really.

Emma Pickett  55:20

Yeah, that's great. And how do you feel about feeding out and about? Do you get if had any negative experiences? 

Ellie Warner  55:26

So I haven't had any negative experiences feeding out and about. I've breastfed on a bus, which, like that was, for me, a really big thing. Like, because I think a bus is an enclosed space, and there's like, people sat next to you and, like, look in close proximity. And Ezra wanted breastfeeding, and I just did it, and nobody said a thing. And I was like, wow, you know, I couldn't believe that were a big achievement for me. But I'll just breastfeed him as and when, wherever he needs it. I'm not shy about it, like at first when Ezra was newborn, I was not very confident about breastfeeding in public. But what really helped me there was going to breastfeeding groups and peer support. And there is actually my local breastfeeding group, Crossgates, breast friends. It's called, they do an Out and About feed once a month. Like a really good idea? Yeah, yeah. So it's something like the first Wednesday of the month. We all meet in a cafe, and all the breastfeeding mums, you know, sit and have a coffee and cake and chat and feed, if you need to. I mean, I wasn't there last week for the public feed, but they put on a Facebook group that like just a member of the public, a gentleman who didn't want to be named for all the mums, a chocolate bar. Yeah, yeah, because he was saying that they were amazing mums and doing a brilliant job. So bought them all chocolate bar. So do you know they tend to get a lot of like, positive feedback, like in the community doing the public feeds. And I think it's really important as well, because it's like, makes breastfeed invisible too. Yeah, yeah. And like a lot of new mums I that I meet through peer support, get the confidence through going to these public feeds as well, because then you realize you know that nobody's looking and, like, you can't actually see that much anyway when you're actually doing it. And then, like, when you've got mums like me that are breastfeeding a 15 month old in middle lit cafe, you know, I suppose it, it gives, it definitely gave me the confidence in the early days. 

Emma Pickett  57:43

Yeah, well, I love that idea. Yeah. I think yeah, that should be standard. That's such a clever idea. Because quite often I support a breastfeeding support group, and then you can see the person's sort of mind whirring, and the next thing they say is, oh, but how would this work out and about? How would this work in a cafe, or if I didn't have this connection, or if I wasn't on this chair, and actually, to have someone right with you when you feed in public is that's a really valuable, yes, early step. So, yeah, that's a great idea. 

Ellie Warner  58:10

So I love teaching mums how to do the laid back breastfeeding position. And even at the breastfeeding group like that, we have, you know, we have to make do with what we've got with the chairs. The chairs are not amazing. And I'm like, Look, if you can master laid back breastfeeding on this chair, you can do it anywhere. 

Emma Pickett  58:28

Yeah, yeah. I love that. I do. I do that with our rubbish chairs as well. If you get your feet good and your bum at the edge of the chair, you can do laid back in the worst Dining Chair type chair.

Ellie Warner  58:39

Yeah, which is another thing that I am also quite astounded about since becoming a peer support trainer, is that, why do, why are mums not taught about laid back breastfeeding like, straight away, at the moment of like, at the moment of birth, like everybody seems to be caught, taught cross cradle hold, like, you know, it's real, It's a real struggle. And then, like, it's like, my next door neighbor, she's actually, she's got a baby, and she's breastfeeding, and she came around and she said, loads of struggles, and she's a bit of a gamer. I said, Hello, remind yourself. I made a couple of adjustments. She was like, no, no, feel free go for it. Told her how to do late breastfeed. I was like, Look, you can do it hands free. She was like, oh my god, she can game. Yeah, so, and then I saw her in the street. She was like, Oh. She says, Thank you for teaching me that position. She says, I'm gaming all the time now. Do you know?

Emma Pickett  59:33

Yeah, so, laid back breastfeeding. I did another keep going girl banging on about other episodes, but I did an episode with the lovely Maddie. We talked a lot about breastfeeding positions, and she's a massive advocate of lay back breastfeeding. I think in the last few years, it's become more common to be talked about, especially in antenatal classes, but unfortunately, a lot of midwives don't get it in their training. So you may come across it in a peer supporter group breastfeeding network are really big on it, but you may, as you say, you could go to hospital and only be taught. Or cross cradle or rugby hold, and that's it, but laid back feeding is a sort of natural continuation from all that gold and our skin to skin stuff. So I'm hoping the more we talk about that, the more we'll naturally migrate to talking about laid back feeding. Yeah. I mean, obviously there's lots of different positions that work for different people, but I do wish that more people knew about that from the beginning. So yeah, thank you. Thank you for getting it out and about and being the advocate for laid back for you, even on the worst rubbish chair, 

Ellie Warner  1:00:25

one of my favorite sayings as well is go with the angle of the dangle. So I'm like mind angles down here. So this is where we need to be,

Emma Pickett  1:00:36

yes, and you can't, because sometimes when we talk the cross cradle hold, it's all kind of like tummy to mummy. That winds me up, because tummy to mummy, if your angle of the dangle is nipple pointing down, tummy to mummy is not going to help you. Sometimes babies will be almost looking up a little bit at the sky because the nipples pointing down. Yeah, we're all of different shapes, and we all have to kind of respect our different shapes and make it work. And that's what's so magic about peer supporters. So you can see yourself carrying on being a peer supporter? 

Ellie Warner  1:01:03

That's not going anywhere. And there was talks of in Leeds with Leeds Bosom Buddies, like one Saturday a month, of doing a peer support group for mums who were breastfeeding 12 months and beyond. So at the minute, there isn't a specific group for that in Leeds, and obviously everybody's welcome at, like, any peer support group, no matter what stage of your breastfeeding journey that you're at. But I thought, I thought I'd definitely love to get involved with that, like meeting other mums that are breastfeeding like beyond 12 months.

Emma Pickett  1:01:42

That's a brilliant idea. Yeah, if it's not too cheeky, I'll come and bring some chocolate bars to that meeting. If, oh, if that ever happens,

Ellie Warner  1:01:51

100% definitely, I'll be like, on the phone to Suzanne now saying get that going! 

Emma Pickett  1:01:57

Yeah, I'll bring her little suitcase of chocolate bars and come up and non dairy chocolate and vegan chocolate options. And, yeah, yeah, that sounds like a brilliant idea. Again, that's another population that are so often forgotten. Everyone just focuses on those early days, understandably, because that's when people are having real stress. But there are some isolated people out there feeding beyond 12 months who just don't know anybody in real life. And actually, it's people like you, and it's this, you know, it's the tiktoks and the social media who they're their only real examples. They're their only real buddies. And they're, you know, that's why I think, you know, people bash social media a lot, but I think that's what can be magic about it, that you do can provide those examples and and you are definitely doing that, Ellie, and yeah, and I will just say, on behalf of the breastfeeding mums of the UK. Thank you so much for being someone who's who's championing and supporting and being a peer supporter and providing that example. Because I think you're fab with a capital F and then a capital A and a capital B. Is there anything we haven't talked about with regards to your breastfeeding journey that you think we need to cover? Anything that you were hoping to get to mention today?

Ellie Warner  1:02:59

I don't know, because I feel like I've just had verbal diarrhea, and I've just, I don't know whether I've said everything succinctly or in the right order. 

Emma Pickett  1:03:08

We don't need succinctly ordered, you've been fabulous. There's definitely, definitely not verbal diarrhea. It's obviously been really, really handy and useful and valuable. And I'm really grateful,

Ellie Warner  1:03:18

yeah, because I suppose the only thing that I would like to say is that I want to be like, a champion for, like, for working class mums and breastfeeding, because I do feel like that it's not seen as a very working class thing, and I think that breastfeeding is for everybody, and breastfeeding closes the gap. Do you know this is why I really want to do a lot like, do you know in my community, like, promoting breastfeeding, because I think that a lot of mums, and especially young mums, and like, other mums like me, think that breastfeeding isn't for them, do you know, and the don't relate to it, but like, it is, you know, like, like I said, it is for everybody. So I just want to, like, shout about breastfeeding, like, from the rooftops, like, because, like, I never, I mean, I had a doula, which to me, was like, quite a posh thing to do. But because I'm not posh, like, I would sit like, I never did NCT or anything like that, because I would see that as something that posh mums do. And like, I've got come from a big family with loads of kids, like, I don't need to do NCT. But then equally, like, I didn't get any support, like, from the midwives and, like, basically what, what my sister said as well, is that her health when she when she was a young mum like her, she were 21 when she had her first child, but that people just assumed that she wasn't going to breastfeed, yeah,

Emma Pickett  1:04:39

so that even in hospitals, I'm literally assuming, not even giving you the option, yeah, I've definitely heard that story. There is so much discrimination against young mums. 

Ellie Warner  1:04:49

Yeah, and my cousin, she was 23 when she had her first baby. She's breastfeeding. I'm still breastfeeding now. Her little boy's 18 months like, which is. Amazing. And basically she was undecided whether she were going to breast or bottle. We were pregnant at the same time. She had all the formulas. She had all the bottles. She knew I wanted to breastfeed. But basically when she gave birth in hospital, it must have been, there must have been some miracle happened that a midwife had time to spend with her, spent time with her latching on and showing her how to do it, and here she still is, 18 months later, still going. So it just goes to show.

Emma Pickett  1:05:30

Yeah, it shows. But it should, you're right, it shouldn't be those miracles. It shouldn't be the one time the midwife's got, you know, a bit of extra time. It should be absolutely standard. And there's obviously a lot of a lot of your story, your story is a success story, but it's also a picture of what happens in the UK and how people have to go and, you know, get that private support if they want to get their situations resolved. And that's not okay. Yeah, we're in a we've, we've definitely, we've got wonderful peer supporters out there. We've got so much that's right about breastfeeding support in the UK, but it's also a broken system, and lots of

Ellie Warner  1:06:01

Yes, and not everybody is as confident say it as like me. Like I am quite confident to challenge somebody say like, you know, in a uniform, in a doctor's surgery and whatever, because, like, we obviously have this hierarchy of expert, of expertise, don't we? And like people respect that, not that I don't respect professionals, but I would not think twice about challenging them if I need to, which I know a lot of people wouldn't want to do, or have the confidence or the ability to be even able to do. So I feel like that I should use, I need to use my skill as being a mouthpiece to help other mums that are not as empowered. 

Emma Pickett  1:06:43

Yeah, well, you're a very lovely mouthpiece, if you don't mind saying it, and I'm very grateful that you are. And thank you so much for joining me today. Ellie, I really, really appreciate you.

Ellie Warner  1:06:53

Thanks for having me

Emma Pickett  1:06:55

Great pleasure. 

Emma Pickett  1:07:00

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.