Bec's story - breast refusal

Sometimes our children can be our greatest teachers. That’s certainly what my guest this week, Bec, believes. 

Although she was a midwife before she was a mother, Bec has learnt so much about mothering and herself since having Lily two and half years ago. Their journey began with a peaceful water birth at 42 weeks, but continued with vomiting and possible reflux, leading to breast refusal. Bec talks openly about that breast refusal period and how it felt. Since those early struggles, they have slowed down together, and learnt to take each day as it comes. Lily is now a thriving boobie monster toddler.

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Emma Pickett  00:43

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I am looking at Bec Baker, who is in Sydney, Australia. She hasn't had her dinner yet, and she should have had her dinner. I'm talking to her in the morning, UK time, and it's very much evening where she is, but she's very kindly going to be joining me today to talk about her journey with breastfeeding her daughter, Lily. And there are quite a few challenges. There's a lot going on, but we've put in the subheading of the show that we're talking about breast refusal, because that's part of the story, and it is a super scary thing to happen to a mum who's feeding a young baby. So I think it's really helpful for us to explore that. Explore that. Thanks very much for joining me today, Bec.

Bec Baker  01:25

Thanks for having me. 

Emma Pickett  01:26

Lily is now two and a half, and she's and she's breastfeeding at the moment,

Bec Baker  01:31

absolutely she is. She's, um, I know you call them a booby monster, so that is absolutely what Lily is. And no one understands what having a booby monster is like, unless you have one. So yes, breastfeeding is the most important thing in her life, even now. So, yeah, nice, yeah. Nice journey.

Emma Pickett  01:47

Yeah. I mean, actually, just to get your feedback on this, I hope you don't mind me using the word booby monster. I mean it affectionately, but as I said in one of my podcasts, there are some children who, you know, their primary hobby is breastfeeding. That is what they would be if they could get a tattoo. It would be a breastfeeding tattoo. These are children for whom breastfeeding is so central. So before we talk about Lily's history, what's day to day life? Like with Lily? Are you working? I know you're a midwife. Are you working at the moment?

Bec Baker  02:12

I am, and I have just gone back to work about a month ago. Okay? And breastfeeding was a reason. I decided to stay at home a little longer, just I didn't feel like she was ready, and it was a slow journey into Solas as well. So yeah, we generally, during the day, she'll feed minimum, probably five times, and then throughout the night can range from two to 10 times. So yeah, still haven't done the night weaning, but yeah,

Emma Pickett  02:39

so I'm guessing you're co sleeping, otherwise you'd be dead. So and are you working any night shift? How are you finding it back at work with with your nights?

Bec Baker  02:49

Yeah, I just started last week. I had my first night shift. I was very, very nervous, but she's quite verbal, and Lily, she really understands everything now. So I explained it all to her leading up to the night shift, and she was absolutely fine with dad. He co slept with her, and surprisingly, it went, it went okay. She just woke up a few times and didn't cry. She just went back to sleep. So perfect, very reassuring. 

Emma Pickett  03:13

Yeah. I mean, I know this is what you're expecting to talk about today, but actually, I think it's really important for people to hear that. I so often meet mums who think, Oh, I've got to stop breastfeeding to sleep if someone else is going to be looking after my child. You know, if I don't stop breastfeeding to sleep, it's almost, you know, unfair on the other adult or unfair on my child. But you've just described a situation where she couldn't be more of a booby monster at night. I mean, up to 10 times waking but you didn't need to stop breastfeeding to be able to have that night shift. It's all about the other parent feeling calm and being able to regulate her and and it's does certainly help if she's got the understanding and the comprehension of, you know what, the fact that you're not there. So did he have to give her any water or any anything to eat?

Bec Baker  03:57

We had all the things. So he had a cooler bag full of yogurts and little pouches of food and water. But no, she didn't. She didn't need, she didn't want anything. She had a bit of a sip. Apparently, one wake up, but she didn't cry or anything like that. So if you had asked me when she was one, she absolutely I wouldn't have been able to do it. She would have been really upset. But now that she's a little bit older, she just said, mummy. And then pat my partner was saying, Oh, Mummy at work, and she just literally rolled over and went back to sleep. So, so reassuring for me going back that that happened. 

Emma Pickett  04:33

Oh, I'm really glad that was your experience. And in terms of your tiredness levels, are you feeling able to function at work? Does that feel okay? 

Bec Baker  04:40

It does, actually, it's crazy. How little sleep you need? I thought I was tired before I was a mother, but it's, it's fine. I nap when Lily naps. Now, the house is a mess, but, yeah, we just make do. And I go to sleep when she goes to sleep at night as well.

Emma Pickett  04:56

Yeah, I think that that must, that must help. I mean, I. If we're co sleeping, as you probably know, your sleep cycles match her sleep cycles, and you get coordinated. So often, it's the co sleeping mums waking frequently who are more rested than the people whose children wake only one or two times, but in another room. So their sleep cycle gets broken into and then they've got to go back to their room to sleep. And it's, you know, those are the people that I meet who often are struggling the most. Well, I do hope that things continue to be as manageable as they're at the moment. Do you have any feelings around what will be the rest of her breastfeeding journey? Are you just playing it by ear? 

Bec Baker  05:33

Oh, look, if you had asked me when I was pregnant if I would still be breastfeeding a two and a half year old, I would have laughed in your face and said, Absolutely not. But motherhood's been my greatest teacher, I think, and Lily's been my greatest teacher, and it's taught me just to take things slowly and as they come, and things do generally, just work themselves out the way they do and the way they're meant to. And I think being a mother, I've definitely become more instinctual to what Lily needs, and don't listen to the noise as much. And that's been my own journey. It's been slow, but now I just will just see how it goes. I think, yeah, I mean, I'd love to have another baby. So that's something else that's on my mind as well. I only recently got my periods back a couple of months ago, so that was my main force to to wean Lily, but it came back themselves. So yeah, I've got no real reason to wean her at the moment, we're still both enjoying it. So yeah,

Emma Pickett  06:32

good. That's good to hear. So now let's take our little time machine go back two and a half years. So you became a midwife not having had a child yourself, I'm always really curious about how that that feels when you're pregnant as a midwife, whether your brain whizzes through every thing that might possibly go wrong, or whether you're actually really able to enjoy it and lean into it. How was your pregnancy?

Bec Baker  06:54

I had a really good pregnancy, actually. I actually was quite scared of the hospital system, and I did have my baby, have lily in the hospital, but I did, I was very careful with the interventions and things like that and the tests I decided to get done. So my actual pregnancy was very natural and instinctual. As well as my birth. I had a nice, easy water birth at 42 weeks without having any kind of intervention or doctors at all. So my journey into motherhood was definitely very easy and natural and beautiful. 

Emma Pickett  07:31

That's good to hear and and do you mind me asking, Did you get hassle about hanging on for 42 weeks? Were there people saying you shouldn't be having a water birth at 42 weeks? Yes, the alarms will go off if you do. How was that conversation?

Bec Baker  07:44

I had the most beautiful midwife. I had a we call it mid MGP over in Australia, it's called midwifery group practice, so you have the same midwife throughout your pregnancy, and she just, I just trusted her, and she trusted me, and I just told her I didn't want any doctors. And she accepted that and just wrote that in my notes, and that's what happened. So, no, she was really supportive. I couldn't have done it without her. 

Emma Pickett  08:08

Yeah, good. And before you had Lily, what were your feelings around breastfeeding? I'm guessing you'd done some training on breastfeeding and but what were your kind of family experiences? Yeah, I'm afraid that that's often the case in the UK as well. What was your training in breastfeeding like when you were training to be a midwife? 

Bec Baker  08:24

Look very, very minimal. I mean, I wasn't a nurse. First, I did my degree just as a midwife, and I think we had a little bit on breastfeeding, but yeah, it's just so minimal. And my world, you know, my mum, I'm a triplet, so there's three of us. Oh, wow. And back in 1987 when I was born, there wasn't breastfeeding. Wasn't exactly the norm anyway, or, you know, especially not long term. So my mum, she pumped, I think, for a couple of weeks, and then she went straight to formula. So I wasn't at all around breastfeeding. It wasn't part of my life, and yeah, I really didn't know anything. Even, you know, I think back and I think, gosh, I can't believe I was a midwife before being a mother. I feel like it should be a prerequisite to doing the degree. Because I really, I didn't know anything. And even the way, you know, we shoved the babies onto the breast as well at birth, that's all I knew. So it was a real experience for me, going through it myself.

Emma Pickett  09:23

So do you have sister triplets? Have they had two brothers? Two brothers? Okay, so not much breastfeeding happening in their experience? Yeah. So what you're saying about shoving the baby on I mean, I don't know how much you know about the UK system, but we're under quite a lot of pressure at the moment with the NHS and, you know, understaffing, and there's a lot of stress on midwives that are based in hospitals. And I was literally having a conversation this week with a mum who said, Honestly, the midwife just frantically shelved the baby on my breast and had to run out the room again. And I just could imagine what that scenario looked like. It just just just sounded such a grim way to initiate breastfeeding that. With Lily's first feed.

Bec Baker  10:01

So because I had a natural birth, and I decided to do a physiological third stage of the placenta, which means you don't get that syntosen On injection in the leg to help deliver it, I knew how important it was to breastfeed, to allow the body to release the hormones, to get rid of the placenta. So we did skin to skin straight away, and my midwife didn't pressure Lily to go on. We just let her kind of do a bit of a breast, crawl down to the nipple, and she latched within, I think it was half an hour after her birth, and then soon after my placenta came out. So yeah, the start to breastfeeding was, yeah, really beautiful. And, yeah, I still remember that first fade, and she was just staring at me. You know, she was such an aware little baby. And she didn't, she didn't take her eyes off me for the rest of her first year. I don't think so. No, it was, it was nice.

Emma Pickett  10:55

Oh, that is not often I meet someone who's actually done a breast crawl, a full on breast crawl. So often there's been some sort of interruption. So that's that's really lovely to hear that you had that experience. And then things didn't necessarily carry on being super easy. When did, when did you start feeling some challenges? 

Bec Baker  11:12

I had quite, you know, the whole normal thing so painful, nipples bleeding, but there wasn't, you know, I wasn't ever concerned about her latch or anything like that. So after two weeks, the breastfeeding started to become easier, and my nipple stopped being so sore. But at about three weeks, she started projectile vomiting. And when I say projectile, I mean, like, huge amounts of my milk was splashing up against the wall and all over the floor. I was, you know, and she would do this sound before she would vomit, you know, like cat does before it vomits, you know, that real deep sound. And I would get a cup and quickly put it underneath her mouth, and she would vomit in a cup. And, you know, there'd be 4050, mils in there at a time.

Emma Pickett  12:00

Wow, three weeks. That's intense. Yes, I mean, I'm guessing you're at that point, you're getting some there are obviously some conditions that result in that projectile stuff, and you're presumably ruling out some of those more serious conditions at that point. What kind of support were you getting?

Bec Baker  12:14

Look, to be perfectly honest. You know the midwives, they see us for two weeks in Australia, and then they pass us on to the early childhood center. Nurses, I forgot what you guys call them over there. Yeah, we've got health visitors. Health Visitors. Yeah, so similar to that, but coinciding with this was also Lily's weight gain, which was falling down the chart. So the nurse told me, first off, that maybe I should start taking matilium to increase my milk supply, because Lily wasn't. 

Emma Pickett  12:43

So that's the brand name for what we tend to call Domperidone in the UK. So, so, so it's, is it given? It's pretty so much a standard in Australia, because over here it's not common. You're gonna get it. Get get given it. 

Bec Baker  12:56

Well, I didn't take it, but yeah, it was recommended. Okay, that nurse. Now, Lily was 42 weeks, so she was four kilos when she was born. I don't Yeah, so that's quite a bigger baby, you know, on the 80th centile or something. But myself and my partner were not big people, and I feel like Lily was probably just trying to find her groove. But there was a concern from the nurses that she wasn't she wasn't losing weight, but she was dropping centiles

Emma Pickett  13:26

It's interesting that the response to that was to give you matillion, when actually it sounds like the milk was just not staying in her from what you're describing. Yeah. You know, to 4050, mils is coming out. That's quite a large proportion of a feed for a three week old baby. So it's interesting, that was the response, were you getting any help around the reflux conversation?

Bec Baker  13:45

So at my six week check, which was with a doctor, I was in absolute tears, because Lily was the most unsettled baby, probably for the first three months of her life. And I mean, I could not put her down. She was crying a lot, projectile vomiting, you know, not gaining the weight that she should have been. And, you know, it was just a I was in absolute flood of tears. When I went to this I was beside myself, and I was like, you know, I'm a midwife. I should know this. But just because of so much milk coming up, and the nurses had told me that it's just spit up and it's normal. And that, you know, all babies have a little bit of reflux, but I knew in my gut that this wasn't a normal amount of milk that was coming up, you know. And I used to take photos of it and send it to my friends and be like, Oh my gosh, you know, this is half a glass full of my milk, and then I'll try and put her back on. And anyway, the doctor did prescribe me medication for Lily for her reflux, and I remember just feeling so beside myself. And, you know, researching it, and, you know, learning about how horrible it is for their gut.

Emma Pickett  14:56

Are you talking about gaviscon on a thickener? Or was it an anti acid, antiposal

Bec Baker  15:02

type stuff. Okay, net result, yeah, that's right, yeah. Okay, yeah. So I did get that filled out, and the pharmacist looked at me and he said, you know, they do grow out of this. It's, it's really not good for them. And I had the bottle, wow.

Emma Pickett  15:15

Okay, so the pharmacist said that about the medication that you're literally about to hand to you, 

Bec Baker  15:20

yeah, I really said to me, you know, you just, just think about this, because they do grow out of it, and it's, it's really bad for their gut. And I spent a fortune on this. It was a compounding pharmacist, and I took it and I put it in my car, and I said, I'm not going to use this. And I didn't. I just went through other avenues about potentially why she was having this reaction to my milk. I was getting a lot of flack from, you know, people around me, so family members, saying things like, maybe she's allergic to your milk. My partner had to be on spelt when he was a little boy, when he was a newborn, as well.

Emma Pickett  16:04

Okay, what's for me? Spelt is a type of wheat we make bread.

Bec Baker  16:08

Well, it's called spelt water. They have it in Germany. He's German my partner, okay, um, and apparently, yeah, after a few weeks, he had the same reaction to breast milk, so they put him on spelt water, which I personally have never heard about, 

Emma Pickett  16:20

I never heard that. Gosh, was your partner born in 1643, I mean, I didn't even know that happened. Gosh. I mean, presumably other stuff's got to be in it as well. Because if it's just what, if it's just water made from a wheat product, that's, uh, wow, that's, I don't know,

Bec Baker  16:38

but that's what he's that's what his mom said. So he was on spelt water. 

Emma Pickett  16:42

That wasn't kind of like, a bit like, you know, giving someone gripe water that wasn't in addition to milk?

Bec Baker  16:46

That was, he wasn't, yeah, instead of milk. 

Emma Pickett  16:50

Wow. Okay, does he have any allergies today?

Bec Baker  16:52

He doesn't no. I know he doesn't, surprisingly, so, yeah, I was getting a lot of, you know, maybe she's allergic to your milk you're feeding her too often, because obviously, she, she has been, and always will be, a quite a sensitive little girl. And I think breast for her was at that time, her security and her comfort. So she was feeding regularly. You know, she'd wake up after 30 minutes nap and go straight onto the boob. And, you know, I was getting a lot of noise around me telling me that perhaps the reason why she's vomiting is because she's having too much. But I did eventually go and see a pediatrician at my work, where I worked at the hospital, who was very helpful. Just he, first off, was very thankful I didn't take the omeprazole a medication, because he knows how bad it is for the gut. 

Emma Pickett  17:46

Can you tell me a bit more about that? I'm just aware if someone's listening and they're giving their child omeprazole and they're like, Whoa, hang on, yikes. What do you mean it's bad for the gut? Can you can you say a bit more about that? What do we what do we know about the how it's acting, just with the gut microbiome? 

Bec Baker  18:00

So obviously, there's a reason why stomachs produce and this acid, you know it, it's if you research a little bit more about the gut microbiome, it talks about the importance of the stomach working the way it does. So if we're stopping the acid, then essentially, we're changing the whole environment of the gut, which can essentially lead to many long term effects. But when I say that this is, this is my experience, and I know that there's lots of women out there that their babies do need omeprazole, there's definitely a place for it.

Emma Pickett  18:39

I mean, I think if a baby's in pain at the point of refluxing, then you know the you know, and they have the disease that you know potentially, about the physiology of how the guts formed. I can see how you know you're going to choose something that stops pain. It sounds, it sounds as though, from what you're describing, Lily, wasn't in pain. I mean, that sort of cat noise doesn't sound like a pain noise, but then she's obviously quite unsettled. So did you feel she was in pain around refluxing?

Bec Baker  19:06

No, I don't feel like she was in pain when she was refluxing. And, you know, she was fine lying on her back and things like that, but she did need to be held all the time. But I don't, yeah, I don't think that she was in a considerable amount of time, she pain. She was just in, you know, just a very unsettled newborn, yeah.

Emma Pickett  19:27

I mean, that kind of vomiting. Some people say, Oh, it's a laundry problem. It's not, it's not a medical problem. And it's easy to think, Oh, it doesn't matter if they're not in pain, but, but just describe for us life, walking around town with a brother baby who's been vomiting that much. Yeah, what was daily life like?

Bec Baker  19:44

I had these burp towels, like these towels someone gave me. They were secondhand. They were already, you know, so used, but I just carried these around with me wherever I went. And I also had a just like a coffee cup with me whenever I. Out, because I knew when she was going to vomit. And the easiest way for me to catch the vomit wasn't actually in the towels, because there was too much. It would just go everywhere. So I would just put the cup in front of her mouth, and she would vomit straight into there. And I would, yeah, it was just, it was a mess my couch. Oh my goodness, it it is, was just covered in stains, and we just had sheets all over it. And it was rough. Yeah, it was, it was really

Emma Pickett  20:28

a change bag. Has got to change outfits for you, not just for Lily. And yeah, exactly, yeah, that that's, yeah, I had, did have a little bit of what you're describing, and that's definitely my world, but nothing to the level that you're describing. That coffee cup system. I respect that. That's quite clever. I've not heard that before, so I'd imagine that a cafe gave someone a bit of a shock when you suddenly whipped out your coffee cup. But it sounds like you're quite clever at getting getting the direction.

Bec Baker  20:54

Yeah. Well, as a midwife, I think we're good at catching vomit, but yeah, no, it was, it was, it was really difficult. And I think as a first time mom, I was really anxious anyway, and I kept thinking, why is my baby like this? And no one else's baby is like this? And the pediatrician that I saw did put me on a dairy free diet for two weeks. He didn't really believe that. He thought it was over diagnosed. CMPA, so cow's milk protein allergy. But he said, Oh, okay, if you want, we can, we can try a very strict no dairy diet for two weeks. And it worked. So that's what it was in the end. 

Emma Pickett  21:30

Wow. Okay, so what point were you doing? 

Bec Baker  21:32

That probably around the three month mark.

Emma Pickett  21:37

Okay, so that was when, yeah, so you were talking earlier, before we started recording that things got really tough in terms of breastfeeding, but that was the solution in the end. Did you then stay dairy free for a long time?

Bec Baker  21:49

Yep, until she was about 18 months, and then I slowly started introducing it back in my diet. 

Emma Pickett  21:54

Okay, gosh, that's interesting. It just completely stopped. Just completely I mean, I guess some people would, if they were the scientist brain on, would say, Hmm, sometimes that sphincter muscle at the top of the stomach matures around then anyway, so you might have just had that coincidental two week overlap of the dairy free diet happening at the same time as the maturity of the gut. Does she have other any, any other dairy symptoms? I mean, any sort of rashes or skin conditions, unusual stools, showing gut damage, any mucus in green stools or blood, flex stools.

Bec Baker  22:26

She did have constipation, but, you know, she still has that now, so I think that's just something else. So, no, absolutely not. So who knows what it could have been, but I wasn't going to arrange you. 

Emma Pickett  22:37

You're going to mess around with it. Yeah, we finally found the solution. You got to get to wear the same shoes. You're going to brush your hair in the same direction. It's going to stay exactly the same. So when you work with that pediatrician, did you were you also getting breastfeeding support at the same time? Was anyone looking at latching? There was no question mark around latching. I know you talked about being really uncomfortable at the beginning, which did not sound comfortable or easy, but there wasn't any question about her ingesting air during the feed.

Bec Baker  23:04

No. I mean, I did see a lactation consultant from my work at the hospital, who I saw at the same time that I started seeing the pediatrician, but the issue was was we were having severe breast refusal at the same time. So when I did have my appointments with her for her to watch me breastfeed, Lily just wouldn't breastfeed. So she couldn't really properly assess my lap, the latch, or anything like that. So it made it difficult. 

Emma Pickett  23:36

Yeah, let's talk about the breast refusal then. So when did that first start? 

Bec Baker  23:41

It happened at six weeks. I remember it vividly because it coincided with her getting her vaccinations at six weeks. And I think that was just, I don't think that really had anything to do with it in particular, but yeah, that's what happened at the same time. So I remember she got her six week vaccinations. I came home and I tried to breastfeed her, and she just pulled away and didn't want to latch. And I remember being so beside myself that she wasn't latching. And I had a had bottles. We'd never bottle fed before, and she still, to this day, has never had a bottle, but I got my neighbor to come around, and we tried to pump, and she tried to feed Lily with a bottle, and she refused that as well. And that was kind of the catalyst for this ongoing, difficult, probably the hardest time of my mothering, which was the breast refusal. 

Emma Pickett  24:32

Yeah, yeah. I mean, six weeks is little, isn't it? That's that's scary when a child does not want to eat at that point. So this is what the middle of the day you were trying to do this, this feed. Yeah, she was just absolutely point blank. How long was it before she finally had some milk?

Bec Baker  24:48

 So I had to wait until she was asleep, and I had to do and this is what happened for the for many, many weeks, was we had to do our feeds lying down, usually just before sleep. People when she was like, just coming out of sleep, is when I was able to breastfeed her.

Emma Pickett  25:05

Yeah, so that. So how long did that period last? Well, then it started around six weeks, and when did it finally end? 

Bec Baker  25:12

Around about three months. So kind of coincided with when her reflux stopped being so horrendous, 

Emma Pickett  25:19

that is a long time. So we're talking about, essentially, six weeks of you constantly worrying about when the next feed would happen, and, and, and presumably sleep becomes super important. I mean, daytime napping becomes crucial, because you, if you don't feed her at that moment, she's going to lose, you know, that feed and not be fed again for many, many hours. So, so I'm guessing that meant that you couldn't leave the house. I mean, you're not going to be doing naps in slings. You're not going to be doing naps out and about. You can't risk a nap in a pram and then she not have that feed. So tell us a bit more about what daily life was like. 

Bec Baker  25:52

You know, I remember it's so vividly. My whole life was around her naps, which is not something I ever wanted to be as a mother was to be one of these people being like, have to be home for this nap. And, you know, I really was so frazzled by it, and I took it so personally, the fact that she was not attaching. I took it because for me, breastfeeding is so instinctual, where mammals and our babies are meant to be breastfeeding and wanting the breast. And I just remember feeling this big divide between me and her at the time, because I thought, oh my gosh, this Baby of mine is not latching. Like is not wanting to feed from me. Why like is there? And my anxiety levels just increase, increase, increase. And it was, honestly, it was such a tough time. I remember we had to go get Lily's passport photos done, and I was so stressed because I knew I had to get home for this feed. And I kept saying, oh, you know, quick, quick curry with the photos, because I need to get this feed done. And I ended up lying in the back seat of my car, which is not a big car, just to try and get her to latch and she sometimes would latch on for a couple of seconds, and then she would pull back and cry and but yeah, for me, it was just such a divide for me and her, because I took it so personally as she was kind of rejecting me as a mother. So it was a really difficult time.

Emma Pickett  27:22

Yeah, I mean, I think that's thank you for sharing that, and I'm so sorry you went through that. I mean that, that rejection, it's so pure, isn't it, because there's nothing you can't talk her out of it. You can't kind of discuss, Hey, babe, what's going on? Let's, let's work through this together. There's something so primeval about it. And not only are you feeling that sense of you know, she's not on your side. You're not she's not on in your team when it comes to breastfeeding. But also you're losing the oxytocin. So you know, you are probably hormonally struggling as well, let alone the actual practicalities of it. Did you carry on trying with bottles in this period? Or it was really clear that wasn't going to work?

Bec Baker  27:59

It was pretty clear it wasn't going to work. And she's never taken a dummy either. For some reason that whenever I put a dummy or a bottle in her mouth, she would just gag. And I have fed hundreds of babies with a bottle, so I thought I was all over it, but she would not take it. I did try, with the supply line to try and get extra milk into her, because she had dropped to the 20th centile at this point. So she dropped from like the 85th down to the 20th. I don't know if you know, if you call it a supply line in the UK, 

Emma Pickett  28:31

yeah, so we know I can take to guess what you mean. So we sometimes call it nsns. Yeah, that's called lactate in other countries. So yeah, a little teeny tube, probably a number five French's diameter, which is tucking into the corner of her mouth while she's feeding. So you're doing that to try and get a bit more milk into her. Were you well, when she was actually on sleeping,

Bec Baker  28:52

yeah, I used to try and slip it into the side of her mouth. But it's honestly, it's like, as soon as she saw it's bright yellow, this, this container I was using, she would just latch, unlatch, and just pull her head back. She knew exactly what was coming, and I had plenty of milk. There was no reason for me to do this. My other breast would be spraying milk everywhere, you know. When I did pump, I was pumping more than enough. You know. I definitely did not have an issue with my supply. This is me looking retrospectively. Of course, when you're in it, I really just wanted to get as much milk into her as possible, so I was trying a supply line and things like that, just to get her calories up. But otherwise, yeah, we were just coming home for feeds, doing lie down feeds when she was sleeping, if we were out. I sometimes bought a picnic rug and lay like on the side of the street, on a piece of grass I could find just to be able to to breastfeed her.

Emma Pickett  29:50

Yeah, and that was working. So she would do that sometimes in the day, if she wasn't necessarily sleeping, or

Bec Baker  29:56

when she was about to go to sleep, she would latch if. I was lying down, so

Emma Pickett  30:01

you there's no chance of getting a to latch in a in a, you know, sling or anything. You're literally lying on a piece of grass by the bus stop. Where was the craziest place that you you ended up feeding like that? 

Bec Baker  30:13

I remember my partner and I just were like, you know, who cares? Let's just go out and see what happens. And we went and got fish and chips by the water, and we were on a jetty, and I remember there was about 10 fishermen, you know, these old men, they're just trying to get their catch. And I just, I had to lie down in front of them and try and shove my boob into Lily's mouth while they were all watching on this jetty. It was just a mess. But I did plenty of, you know, stopping the car at a, you know, a park on the way home from somewhere just to feed her, like, just, yeah, just a bit of grass somewhere. But I remember those men were looking at me, like, one fisherman.

Emma Pickett  30:54

Oh, gosh, see, I've pictured that in my head. I've got, I've got Sydney Harbor Bridge in the background. I've got the Opera House. I've got, I've got my whole picture of imagining these little fishermen. Well, you're probably modeling breastfeeding in a very positive way. They went home and told their fishermen's wives about your breastfeeding experience. 

Emma Pickett  31:12

A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book published by Pinter Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE10, Makes Milk Pickett Emma 10. Thanks. 

Emma Pickett  31:59

And what? And what's your kind of emotional state at this point? You've talked about that, that really powerful feeling of rejection. Did that? Did that carry on? Or did you get to a place of this is how it's going to be forever. I mean, where were you emotionally?

Bec Baker  32:12

I think I was definitely an anxious mess at this stage. I've never suffered any kind of anxiety or depression before, but my anxiety was very high at this point, mostly as well, because of the comparison in motherhood as well. So I was thinking, why is this happening? You know, I had this natural birth and this beautiful pregnancy in this beautiful baby who was so connected to me from the start, like I knew she was just so connected, and then just that rejection really did. I'm sure Lily could feel it as well. I was anxious at every feed and every check in with the doctor, and every weight I was I was very nervous, but at the end of the day, like there was no other option for me, because she wouldn't take a bottle, so I couldn't even formula feed her if I wanted to. So for me, it was just taking everything day by day and hoping that it would pass. But yeah, it was a really tough, tough time.

Emma Pickett  33:13

Yeah, and what kind of helped you? I mean, did you have a particular sort of things that would make life easier for you, or particular people in your life that helped.

Bec Baker  33:21

I mean, my partner, Pat, he's not the biggest fan of me breastfeeding now, but sadly, but the first year, he was very supportive. So my job was to pretty much just look after Lily, and he did all the cooking and cleaning and brought me Vegemite on toast in bed and things like that. So that was really just what would get us through.

Emma Pickett  33:43

I mean, some people I speak to have who have had some difficult experiences at the beginning are breastfeeding now because they're repairing something like your natural term breastfeeding, and bringing it to a natural close is perhaps, you know, repairing some of these months that you had these experiences and and, you know, feeling a bit more empowered to over your breastfeeding journey during this time then when she's like six weeks, eight weeks, 10 weeks, the reflux still hasn't been sorted. Not only is she breast refusing, but she's still bringing up enormous amounts of milk and when. So when you finally did lie down and get something into her, you couldn't guarantee it would necessarily stay in and and her weight gain was still a worry at this point. 

Bec Baker  34:24

She's still not putting away in the right amounts that people know that, of course, they wanted her to stay on her centile line, which now, in retrospect, I think, well, of course she was on the 80th centile. She was 42 weeks. She put on most more weight than a term baby, which is 40 weeks. So of course, she was going to be bigger, and I wish I had just never got her way, to be honest, because she was still sitting on the 20th centile. She was still a healthy baby. But yeah, I think just because of the rapid drop in her lines, they were concerned. But the pediatrician just said to me, Well, yeah. Just have to give this time, and there's nothing I can really do, because the only other option is to put a nasal gastric tube in her, and we're not at that stage yet, so just continue doing what you are doing, and then he kind of just let me go. So, 

Emma Pickett  35:15

yeah, yeah. I mean, that pediatrician sounded like what you needed. I mean, some people would say, Come on, there were no solutions there. You know, what do they actually recommend? But actually, it sounded like he was really good at listening to what mattered to you and and looking at the whole picture, and looking at everyone, you know, everyone's story, which is, is ultimately what, what we want. So you were lying down a lot. You're obviously co sleeping. No possibility of not co sleeping, because you had to catch every possible feed you could. How was your sleep at this point? Were you, like, hyper vigilant of when she was rustling so you could get a feed in? Or were you managing to get some sleep?

Bec Baker  35:50

I managed to get some sleep. I mean, co sleeping is such a beautiful thing like that. It's, it's almost like you don't fully wake up with Lily at you know, overnight, I didn't have any issue with breastfeeding, I think because she was in a state of sleep, sleepiness as well. So she would just start making those sounds. I wouldn't ever let her get to the state of crying, and it's almost like it was just in my dreams, I would just drag her towards me, and we would breastfeed, and then she'd go back, you know? So, yeah, there was, I was just kind of in a half sleep, and to this day, I still am in a half sleep all night with her, so that just helped so much.

Emma Pickett  36:34

And there was no you didn't have a fear that she was going to stop feeding at night as well. You didn't have that anxiety. You managed to kind of stay calm in those moments.

Bec Baker  36:42

Yeah, I did. Because, you know, I only could do what I could do, and you know, she was thriving developmentally. She was well ahead in all her milestones, so all I could do was just take it day by day, and the days were long, like I remember the days just that first six months for me was long, but I just took every day as it could. And, you know, I mean, I was in tears most days, but we managed.

Emma Pickett  37:08

I can imagine that you were, I mean, what did you get to a point where you stopped trying in the day, setting up like you didn't bother offering, or did you always continue offering?

Bec Baker  37:19

I stopped offering, and it's actually funny, you say that because the lactation consultant I was seeing, who does only deal with hospital newborn babies. So we were learning kind of together. She was a friend of mine, so she she said to me, why don't you give it a bit more of a time? So Lily's quite hungry, so this is at the three month mark. She said, why don't we just give Lily a bit more time between feeds? You know, don't just feed her to sleep every one and a half two hours, or whatever, she was napping. Wait a big four hours and then try. And so I did. I waited, and I remember being so anxious, being like, oh my gosh, I really need to feed her. It's been four hours, and I was at my mom's place, and she's like, BEC, just it's fine. And I was like, Oh my gosh, you know, because I never waited four hours between a feed with Lily, because we were doing it every time she went to sleep. And I she said, Let's just give her four hours and then try and do a sit up, you know, cross cradle hold, and we'll try and attach her. And I did. I waited four hours and she latched and I took, I still have a photo in my phone of that. I was so happy. I couldn't believe it. And from that day slow. It was slow, but we managed to do some sit up feeds at least once a day, and then we ended up just breastfeeding everywhere. So it was amazing.

Emma Pickett  38:42

Wow. Okay, so what was going on there was, was it about her needing to just be super hungry? Was that what was necessary, or, or again, just, was it just that combination of stuff coming together? So the reflux of past, you know, what did you What was your gut feeling about how that, what brought that about?

Bec Baker  38:59

I think she did, obviously, with the reflux and vomiting. You know, she would cry after she vomited. She wasn't happy about it, and she looked quite scared when she used to vomit it up. I remember her face would like drop before she vomited. So there was a, definitely a link. She was not happy with the vomiting. So maybe it was the fact that the vomiting had slowed so much, and she wasn't getting, you know, that frightened feeling after a feed, so perhaps that was it. But then, you know, saying that she did go back to feeding every two hours until she was two. So yeah, who knows that? Who knows it's one of those things,

Emma Pickett  39:43

yeah, sometimes with, with sort of breast refusal, or even a full nursing strike, one of the hardest things is the not knowing. Just just, you just don't know what's happening. You don't even know what the cause of it. I mean, some people do know. You know they might have had their child biting and they screamed and the child doesn't want to come back on it. But when. Talking about six week olds who are doing that. But that sort of mystery is can sometimes be very frustrating. When you look back at that time, is there anything you would say to yourself? I mean, if you could go back and and talk to yourself in those few weeks, was there anything you'd do differently? Is there anything you'd want yourself to know?

Bec Baker  40:16

Ithink you know just to trust my instincts a bit more and just do what I could, you know, like, I know, I say that I, you know, I just took every day as it comes, but it was full of anxiety. And I think Lily definitely felt that, I think I should have just not listened to the noise around me, and Googling and, you know, putting questions on Facebook groups and things I feel like I should have just switched off and tuned into my baby and just laid with her naked all day and just given her free access to the breast, instead of making it so regimented and anxiety filled. And, yeah, yeah,

Emma Pickett  40:59

but I guess if you had literally around all day, I mean, you wouldn't have let you literally wouldn't have left the house at all. I mean, as it was, you obviously couldn't have any time away from her at all. You needed to be there the whole time. That's intense. That's an intense time for you, an intense few weeks, and as she started to feed more. Did you feel your anxiety dropping? Did you feel yourself relaxing more? How did you feel mentally?

Bec Baker  41:23

Yeah, absolutely. I'm definitely my partner and I are always out doing things. So we are always adventuring around the world in busses or vans or traveling. And my aim when I became a mother was to not let my life change and to continue this, you know, life of freedom. And I think Lily definitely slowed my world, and I say that in a in a positive way. I didn't know it at the time, but I think that's actually probably just what I needed was to just slow down and stop and just be present, instead of going out and doing things with a newborn and exploring, I think, you know, as I said, Lily has been my biggest teacher as a becoming a mother, and I feel like that was the best gift she's given me, was just to learn to stop and slow down and, you know, slowly, then we came out of the trenches and explored slowly into the world, rather than this fast whirlwind that I seem to live my life by. 

Emma Pickett  42:28

Yeah, yeah. So her reflux had stopped, as we said, round about that sort of 12 week mark, whether it was because of your diet or something else, no more breast refusal at all. You didn't have nursing strikes at 10 months. Nothing else. It just carried on after that. 

Bec Baker  42:42

She is obsessed. Absolutely.

Emma Pickett  42:45

Did you ever have a moment of, oh my god, maybe today's the day I'll have another breast refusal moment? Or were you able to let it go?

Bec Baker  42:51

It was such a slow transition back to breastfeeding everywhere that it was a gradual acceptance of this is the new norm. So yeah, it wasn't just that one day, she just started to latch with me sitting up. It was very slow. It probably happened over like two months, another two months, where I was actually then able to breastfeed wherever.

Emma Pickett  43:15

And how did things carry on with her, her weight, 

Bec Baker  43:19

her weight, she's even today, this day, she's still sitting on about the 15th centile. That is just who she is. She's tall and skinny and, yeah, I wish I never even weighed her like that, because, yeah, it's just silly. You know, babies put on, I forgot what it is now, 100 grams is it per week in inside, in utero.

Emma Pickett  43:41

So yeah, I mean, you probably know better than me about what happens in utero. I'm an out of utero girl, 

Bec Baker  43:46

so I think it's about 150 grams a week. So obviously Lily was on the upper scale of normal because she was late. And I wish I just took that into account before I became so anxious about her weight, but no, it's continued now on the 15th to 20th centile, 

Emma Pickett  44:06

yeah, yeah. I mean, I think one of the things I would probably say about centiles and charts is that they are screening tools that help us find the babies who are not doing well, and there is something going on. Now in Lilly's case, we can probably say that her birth weight was higher than it would have been if she'd been born at 40 weeks. So you were always chasing that imaginary centile that wasn't necessarily her level, where she was going to settle down, but another baby maybe dropping that number of centiles may have had something going on with their feeding. You know, may have had something anatomical. May have had something much more worrying, but ideally, what should have happened, though, is someone who should have said to you, okay, let's look at Lily. This is what's happening to her weight. But let's look at her nappies. Let's look at her skin condition. Let's look at, you know, her milestones. Let's look at everything else. Is this an unwell baby? Doesn't seem to be an unwell baby, so maybe this is something different. Um. But I guess we have to have those screening tools, because some babies that move that much will be unwell babies. But I think you obviously had some confidence coming from your professional background, but I think you also met some people as well. I mean, the pediatric patrician you're talking about was somebody who, I think was able to help you look at the whole picture as well. Yeah, but yeah, I mean that that overweighing and focusing on weight for its own sake can be such a hard cycle to get out of you mentioned that she was a little bit slow to solids. Tell me a bit more about that. 

Bec Baker  45:30

I introduced solids at six months, and I thought she would take to them so quickly because she was on the smaller side, but she just had zero interest, really, in any you know. She She was never scared of it. She would always taste broccoli and meat and whatever we put in front of her. We did baby led weaning so, you know. And she ate with us, and we did all the things, but she just, it was more of a fun game for her, even past one. And I was told that food should be, you know, milk, breastfeeding or milk should be second to solid foods at one. And I found it. I mean, there was nothing I could really do about it, but I did find it really worrying that she wasn't eating meals. You know, the other moms in my mother's group, their babies were eating bowls of oats, and Lily would be like a lick of a lick of a spoon, and, you know, suck on a steak, and then that was her done, and then she'd ask for the boob again. And I was getting a lot of pressure from family members as well that I should breastfeed after a meal, but that made no difference. In fact, it made it worse, because she wasn't regulated when she was at the dinner table. 

Emma Pickett  46:48

Because, yeah, I've heard that before, angry, little hungry person is not necessarily someone who's happier to be eating and be sitting away from you in the at the table. 

Bec Baker  46:57

Yeah. So she would just, she really, to be perfectly honest with you, she's two and a half now, I think she just started eating proper meals, maybe just after she turned to which sounds concerning when I say it like that, she was eating snacks and things, but she was definitely not having meals she and it made No difference with my breastfeeding. I did try and cut down a little bit on the breastfeeding, but yeah, it made absolutely no difference with her, 

Emma Pickett  47:30

and no other issues with allergies? She's not no other signs of allergy, anywhere, anything else she and any allergy response to dairy is she? Is she having dairy herself now?

Bec Baker  47:39

she's having dairy. Yeah, and there's been no problem. So she probably didn't have CMPA, to be honest, but we'll never know. 

Emma Pickett  47:46

Yeah. Well, it sounds like Lily's someone who knows her mind and knows, knows what she wants. And, I mean, you had the steak in front of her, you had the broccoli in front of her. You can't literally force it in her face. I mean, that's the thing about, you know, feeding babies. It's that whole metaphorical bring a horse to water thing you can't literally shove it in their face. What more can you do? And it sounds as though you were being very thoughtful around looking and experimenting with feeding in different ways. Yeah, you've mentioned family pressure a couple of times. I don't want to put you in a complicated place, but are you feeling pressure now about how things are with her feeding.

Bec Baker  48:20

The beauty of it. Now I think, I mean, my aim was to always feed her until she was two. And my backup was, well, with the World Health Organization says blah, blah, blah, and that was my kind of backup. 

Emma Pickett  48:36

But the World Health Organization doesn't say feed until two. It says minimum of two. So it is two and beyond, and it is two and beyond, as long as it's working both for you and her. So there's no sense that two is a cut off. I say that in my best mum voice. Sorry if that sounds at all patronising.

Bec Baker  48:54

yeah. So I did get a bit of pressure to you know that her solid her sleep would improve, her solid intake would improve if I did stop breastfeeding, and now it's considered so taboo in both my family and my partners, I think that they just don't talk about it. And I have had some comments like, you know, Lily will. She calls it boo boo. She's like, I want some boo boo. And then I hear, you know, my mother in law or something, say, Oh, well, we don't talk about that. And you know what? That's fine by me, because it used to really upset me, especially when she was younger, that I wasn't getting supported. But at the end of the day, you know, I just think it's Lily and I's relationship. No one else can really understand it. And, yeah, I just feel like their experience with breastfeeding is different to mine, and their education on breastfeeding is different. So I just now it's water off a duck's back, but it used to really upset me, but it used to really grind my gears, that you know, why doesn't anyone understand? And that, why aren't people patting me on the back saying, saying, wow, you know, look at you. Look at how amazing you are, and you're breastfeeding on demand at 18 months. And Lily, actually, I had to contact nap with her sitting up until she was 18 months, she would not be put down. And she used to do, I call it breast sleeping, where she would have to have the breast between her her sleep cycles, and that was a lot for me, because I had to be there holding her at every nap until she was one and a half. And no one was saying, Wow, Beck. Like, that's amazing. You're doing that. You know, that's what I wanted. I needed that validation at the time. 

Emma Pickett  50:39

I'm sorry you didn't get that. Could it? Can I say that? And we've already just met, but well, you, I mean, you're obviously so giving, and you've, you've given her so much, and she's such a lucky little girl to have somebody who was, you know, absolutely there, plodding along and and giving of yourself and giving of your time. And, yeah, I mean, as you say, we can't fix other people, and some people have got their own baggage that goes deep. And to say to you, gosh, well done for still breastfeeding or well done for cotton tack dapping at 18 months implicitly criticizes their personal choice, that you know, maybe their mothering was part of that who they are and that sort their core identity. And some of this stuff goes on a very subconscious level, and I sometimes we can't fix people, and we just have to accept that. I mean, I had done an episode of the podcast on on dealing with family pressure, and that's one of the sort of conclusions we've came we've come to, is that you can't convince people necessarily, because they're just, they're just not there. They're just, they're not living it. They don't look into her eyes and have a lovely little face looking up at you. They just don't get it, and they're never going to get it. So I'd actually have more respect for your mother in law saying we don't talk about it than if she was continuing to make negative comments. I'd rather she didn't say anything at all if she can't come around. But Lily is a lucky little girl that you are so able to focus on her needs and and you know, we could have another whole hour talking about all the health advantages for her and for you, but the gift that you're giving her is just so valuable. Yeah, so if somebody is listening to this and they are dealing with a breast refusal right now this minute, and maybe that's why they decided to listen to this episode, what message would you have for them? 

Bec Baker  52:17

I think just like everything in motherhood, everything is a season. You don't know it when you're living it, especially in those early months, but everything does pass, and you only can do what you can do, and you just need to support yourself and your baby, and that is really your only job at the moment. So just take every day as it comes, get the support you need, you need at the time, and just love your baby and and be there for them, and just know, don't give up, because it is, you know, now I'm two and a half years in, and that just seems like such a distant memory, but I know at the time when you're living it is, it's extremely difficult, it's so damaging, but I Have not regretted any second of persevering through that, and it did, it changes just as quickly as it starts. So just hang in there.

Emma Pickett  53:07

Yeah, I guess that feeling of rejection isn't something you can necessarily intellectualize yourself out of that feeling of, you know, your baby, your baby being against you. It's really difficult to kind of think through that. But I guess on one level, it would be nice to give a message of this is not your baby rejecting it really, really isn't. There's something going on that you may not understand, but your baby is absolutely hardwired to the opposite of reject you. And you know, they're looking for ways to connect with you, even if that moment breastfeeding isn't the way they want to do it. They would. They definitely want to connect you in other ways as well. And and you are on the same team as your baby, even though it may not feel like it in that in that moment, you're going to find a solution together. And you and everyone gets there in the end. And there were, you know, you mentioned the feeding line, the SNS. You know, some people are finger feeding with an SNS as well. Some people are spoon feeding and syringe feeding, and, you know, NG tubes, and you know, that's luckily not something you had to experience very occasionally. They are a tool in this journey, and they're not necessarily something to fear, because they can be, they can be really useful. If things have really gone pear shaped, there's always going to be a way to feed your baby. Your baby's not going to be in danger. But, yeah, you talked about getting support. So you had your lactation consultant friend. You had your pediatrician. Have you ever talked to anyone else that's had a sort of breast refusal stage? No, I haven't. Actually, no. So you never met anyone else on an online group, 

Bec Baker  54:37

or I had some people on some Facebook groups that said they went through the same thing, and they also, they were the ones that said, Do it while the baby's sleepy. So I used to do it, as I said, before and after her nap. But yeah, I didn't, you know there's no cure for it, because it is. It's like an unknown thing. You don't know why the baby's doing it, and as you said, it is. It does feel like a rejection. So, yeah, I think, yeah, it's just one of those things. There's no cure for it. You just got to take it day by day and hope it sorts itself out. Yeah, yeah. 

Emma Pickett  55:13

Well, I'm very glad it did in your case. And and lucky little lily, who's, I'm guessing, sleeping now, because it's your evening, and 10pm so no, not not yet. Okay, so you'll be getting to going to bed with her. Okay, well, I'm gonna go and let you have your dinner, and I'm really grateful for your time today. BEC, thank you so much for sharing your story. Yeah, it's a story of determination and finding solutions, and, as you say, slowing down and and taking things at a slower pace and solutions will present themselves. Thanks. 

Bec Baker  55:45

Thanks so much, Emma.

Emma Pickett  55:50

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.