Summer holiday replay - Dealing with family pressure

‘You’re not feeding him again are you?’ ‘I’m only saying this because I’m worried about you’ ‘Don’t you think she’s a bit old for that now?’ 

Unsupportive comments from family members can be hurtful and stressful for you and your child. Especially when you’re trying to relax and enjoy your holiday.

This summer bonus episode is a replay of episode 16, where Raksha and Lauren share their stories of difficult relatives, and we share some tips for dealing with them.

I’m taking a break over the summer holidays, and replaying a few of my most popular episodes. I’ll be back with a brand new episode on 3rd September 2024.

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Emma Pickett  

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end. So join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and only at that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

This episode on dealing with family pressure first went out in November last year. In the episode, I was really honored to speak to Raksha and Lauren, about their experiences of dealing with family pressure and not always having the best support from family members, particularly about breastfeeding to natural term. It's a conversation where they were really honest and open. And I really also think that their strength shone through - lots of people contacted me after the episode to say how much it had meant to them, and how special it was to hear people share their experiences. I wish I could say that we all lived in a world where as breastfeeding mothers and parents we are celebrated and championed. But I know that's not always the case. I know that quite often people may get support in the early months and then we have what some of us call the 12 month switcheroo where your child gets to their one year birthday and then suddenly, the breastfeeding complements seem to fall away. You get comments instead about when are you stopping? How long are you going to keep doing this for? Are you still going to co sleep? It's not easy. I'm talking particularly from a UK perspective. 

I don't like to focus on the negative. But I do think sometimes by sharing the negative, people will feel less alone. So if you are listening to this, and it's your summer holidays, and you are worried about spending time with people that don't understand your breastfeeding choices, please understand that you are not alone. Please know that there are breastfeeding supporters and lactation consultants out there, and members of the breastfeeding community, absolutely get what you're going through and how tough it can be. Especially if the comments are coming from people who you really respect and love. Whether it's your partner, whether it's your own mom or your own parents, it can be incredibly hard. You might get some comfort from one of my episodes on the value of continuing to breastfeed. It's called Well done for breastfeeding until now. You may also get some value from episodes where people are talking about their natural term breastfeeding journeys, and how much they have meant to them and how important they are to them. It's really important to know that by continuing to feed your child, you are doing the absolute best for them, you are setting them up for decades to come. You will look back on this time in 20/30 years with pride even though when you're right in the middle of it, it can feel incredibly difficult. If you're about to go away on holiday with somebody who doesn't fully understand why you were still breastfeeding. 

Please know that you do not have to have conversations you don't want to have. You also don't necessarily have to be a world expert on natural term breastfeeding, and have research papers and information at your fingertips. Sometimes I think we feel we have to sort of advocate for lactation. But we don't necessarily have to accept the premise of the question when someone says why are you still breastfeeding? a sufficient answer is ‘because it works for both of us. Thank you very much’. And to change the subject. You don't have to send the links to research studies. You don't have to buy my book. And I'm saying that even though that means you don't buy my book, you don't have to argue the case. Because science and generations and millennia of human action has argued the case. Sometimes you just have to say, you know what? I don't know if we're going to entirely agree on this decision. But I am choosing to continue to breastfeed. I hope that you will support me even though you don't necessarily agree with me. This is where I am. And I'm really proud of where I am, and change the subject. 

One of the things I do sometimes advocate is if you're going to be spending an extended period of time with someone perhaps going away on holiday, it can be useful to send a message out in advance. I've sometimes advocated in the past for people to write a letter or send an email round to say hi, everybody heads up. Yes, we are still breastfeeding. Yes, we are still co sleeping. You might hear my child talk about booby or milkies. That's what they're referring to. I really would appreciate it if nobody would make a comment in front of my child. If you would like to speak about it privately with me. Of course you're welcome to do so. But I'm not going to be entering into long extended discussions about my choice. Really looking forward to seeing you all, isn't going to be fabulous? I’ll buy you an ice cream. End of conversation. So essentially, you do not have to accept the premise of the question if somebody's arguing that breastfeeding needs to be justified. Well done for staying strong. I know it's not easy, especially if you feel like you're on your own. And I hope you get some insight inspiration from Raksha and Lauren’s strength iIn this episode. I'll be back with new episodes in September.

Emma Pickett  

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode, we're going to be talking about something which I think is possibly one of the most painful aspects of breastfeeding support and being a breastfeeding parent. And that's having family members or friends or people close to you that don't really understand your journey, and they don't really understand the choices you're making. And they might even put pressure on you to stop breastfeeding. And that is so hard when we live in a society where we're often surrounded by lots of cultural noise about continuing to breastfeed, and we may be struggling with our own lack of confidence. We deserve to have people around us that support us and understand why breastfeeding matters to us. I think sometimes we have to understand that when people aren't supportive of breastfeeding, they're coming from from a place of their own trauma. This is something I talked about on Instagram yesterday, for many decades, and for the last sort of 100 years or so we've been heavily influenced by this sort of parenting philosophy that comes from behavioural theory. So people like John Watson in the 1920s, who talked about how breastfeeding children and young children shouldn't be mollycoddled. They shouldn't be dealt with in a way that's overly affectionate, we should be creating independent little people, they should be sleeping independently, they shouldn't need us. And even though that was 100 years ago, and we've made loads of advances since then, and understanding infant psychology and little people, psychology, we've still got ripples from some of those influences that tell us that when we meet our children's needs emotionally, we're doing something wrong, we're failing them somehow we're not getting them ready for school, we're not creating an independent little person that's going to succeed in the world. And, you know, even today, in 2023, there are people who believe that if you continue breastfeeding beyond 12 months, you're going to spoil a child, you're going to create a little child that isn't the little person we need them to be in the modern society, despite the fact there is zero evidence to support that. You're the evidence we have. So Oddie et al, which is a study from Australia talks about continuing to breastfeed supporting mental health. We've got studies in the Philippines that talk about continuing to breastfeed supporting with school readiness. We've got all these studies that tells us that continuing to breastfeed is the best thing for our child on a psychological and emotional level, we could have another whole hour talking about the physical benefits of continuing to breastfeed and the immunological benefits. So there is zero evidence to support the idea that we should be stopping to breastfeed because it helps our children. But yet, we still have these influences from even sometimes health professionals, but also people close to us who should love us and should want us to be happy and want us to meet our goals. So if you are somebody today who's listening to this, and you do have a family member, it might be your partner, it might be someone older, in an older generation, who doesn't get while you were breastfeeding, I want you to know that you are not alone, I want you to know that you are heard that we we see you we know what you're going through. And this next conversation is very much for you. So I'm really honoured to be joined by two women, Lauren, and Raksha, who are going to be talking about their experiences of dealing with pressure or negativity. And I'm going to let them put their own words on that from people in their in their wider group and in their closer group. And by sharing their experiences, I'm hoping you will identify with some of the journey they've gone through and it will help give you some strength in your journey. And I'm really honoured that they're doing this because obviously this is slightly uncomfortable. You know, I'm not not everyone's listening to my podcast, I'm not in under some illusion that I have a million downloads. So I'm hoping this isn't gonna put them in an awkward place. And I really am very, very grateful for them to for coming on and sharing their story. Lauren and Raksha, thank you very much for joining me today. 

Emma Pickett  

So let's start with you Raksha, tell me a little bit about your breastfeeding your lactation journey. 

Raksha  

Hi. So I have two daughters. My first one is now nearly eight. And what I'm going to be talking today is mostly my breastfeeding journey with her my second is two. So we're still not yet there where we're getting a lot of pressure. But with my first one I breastfed her and She was four and a half when she naturally weaned on her own. Up until she turned one. Everything was perfect. Everybody was super supportive, super encouraging. And like, Oh my God, that's brilliant. You're still at it. I don't know what happened when she turned one. It was like every conversation was about. So you're going, when are you winning? It was not? Are you going to win her? It was, when are you going to win her? Do you need help with winning her? I couldn't get it. But and it was really hard. Because if a stranger on the street had made comments of me breastfeeding, I would have just let them have it. But when it's coming from a close family member, especially an older family member, you need to be respectful. You need you can't just, you know, vent on them. But it's really hard because you're trying to explain facts to them. And either they don't get it or they just shut you out. And they say no, no, it's wrong. What you're doing is wrong. You need to win her now. That's pretty much a very uphill battle that I've had. Literally every every problem was brought back to breastfeeding. She's not eating very well. Oh, that's because you're still breastfeeding her. She's not sleeping very well at night, or that's because you're still breastfeeding her. Anything that happens!

Emma Pickett  

That really rings true. That is such a common story I hear the breastfeeding scapegoat is a problem, isn't it? She can't do up his shoelaces yet. Well, that must be because you breastfed her actually. She was four and a half. Oh, no, she likes watching corporator, almost because you're breastfed. But I'm so impressed that you carried on until she self weaned at four and a half. I mean, despite the fact that you've had that pressure from as early as 12 months, you were obviously a pretty amazingly strong woman. I mean, where did that inner strength come from that meant that you could carry on despite that pressure.

Raksha  

I think part of it is because my family lives in India, and I live here in the UK. So it helps that I don't see them on a you know, in person on a very regular basis. Because honestly, if I lived close to them, I would have succumbed or my husband will also come first and then we know the pressure would have added on, bless him, he will he's been super supportive through this whole thing. He didn't quite understand it. Because he doesn't he's not as exposed to the circles online that I was. And we didn't have any friends who breastfed past six months to one year at all. So it was all new for him. But he trusted my judgement. And he would support me to a large extent. I don't think without that I would have been able to carry on or if I'd been physically present with them, where I was seeing them on a weekly or a daily basis or relying on them for childcare, for instance, it would have been really hard. Yeah, I think for me, the main thing is what it meant for my daughter, I was working full time, 4050 hours a week, the only bonding that we had after a busy work there was breastfeeding to the night in the mornings. And that was her way of knowing that I'm here for her. And I wasn't ready to keep that up until she was I did the deal with a lot of diversions and all of the other things that comes with breastfeeding a toddler, but it was what it meant to her that just kept me going I think, yeah. 

Emma Pickett  

Gosh, I mean, you have those hours pretty hefty work hours work, working that many hours with a with a young child is pretty intense. And I'm thinking about the timetable here. I'm guessing you're the weight when the pandemic hit. You were breastfeeding her and, and working. And presumably that was a time when your your family were also struggling with the pandemic in India as well. So there's a lot of stress is going on? And do you think that the the pandemic made a difference to what was happening with your breastfeeding journey?

Raksha 

It did actually because she went during the pandemic in the middle of the lockdown, because I think for her that was just a way to be close with me. And because we were together 24/7 For over a few months, I think she stopped relying on breastfeeding so much to connect with me and she would actually just forget about so even when she turned four, it had just come down to the breastfeed before bedtime. But that was a non negotiable that had to happen. But I think during the pandemic, because we spent all day together for an extended period, I think she stopped using breastfeeding as a crutch for you know, connecting with me and I think I wasn't I wasn't too thrilled about the timing because it was you know, the one time where I actually wanted her to breastfeed and she just you know she'd she'd forgotten about it for a couple of weeks at one point and I asked her Well, do you want to breastfeed today? And she's like, No, thank you. And that was it.

Emma Pickett  

No, she definitely, it sounds like she was absolutely ready to finish and all her needs were met, which is magic. And not everyone gets to have that experience. So I'm so glad that you did. Thinking back to some of those really early, tough experiences with your family. And actually, you talked about how you did try to educate them. Tell me a bit more about those experiences and how you went about doing that.

Raksha  

So I, I trained as a peer supporter, close to when my daughter turned one, because I had an exceptionally difficult start with her. And I kind of wanted to pay it forward and all of that. So here I was, I had this qualification. So I kind of knew what I was talking about. And that wasn't enough. You know, when my mum especially would always be on my case, when are you winning her? You know, you come over here, and then you leave her with me for two weeks, and then she'd be weaned, and I was not interested in at all. And it was really hard, I guess, I mean, and my family come from a really educated background. So I thought that, you know, sending them articles sending them research papers would help. But my mum would just brush it off saying, Well, this is fine, you know, but this stuff doesn't work in real life. It's not practical. And anytime anything happened, it would be like proving my point. Yeah, there was a time when she was sick, and she wasn't eating anything else like, and she was only breastfeeding. And I, you know, I happened to be in India at the time. And oh, my God, it was not just my immediate family, it was my extended family, everyone who would come to visit us, they'd be like, Oh, you're still breastfeeding her. That's why she's not eating. And actually, that's why she falls sick so often.

Emma Pickett 

Oh, yeah. Cuz that's a sign that breastfeeding is renowned for making children ill, isn't it? I mean, Oh, so you're so you're dealing with such a misunderstanding of breastfeeding, there's something so deep there, isn't there? And, and even though you have that qualification, and you, you know, sadly, there's not an enormous amount of research about continuing to breastfeed, because not many people are researching continuing breastfeeding and science around that. But the science we do have is, is so powerful, you know, so there's Natalie Schenker in the parenting science gang, their study on looking at constituents of breast milk and, and how we can see that breast milk, you know, two years plus, it continues to have all these amazing benefits. And, you know, even though the science is very much on our side, they're not even open to hearing that logic, are they by the sounds of it? And there's just so much weighed against you when you're having these conversations? So did you find yourself sort of giving up on trying to convince them? How did you sort of come to a balance?

Raksha  

I think there was a point where I reached when she was close to two and a half or something, when will when it was the next trip, we went to India and at that point, I just decided I'm going to be the bad guy, you know, I've given up giving up. Because I realised at some point that, you know, like you mentioned, a lot of it was coming from a place of guilt, because my mum was put under tremendous pressure to stop breastfeeding my brother who's younger than me at 12 months, and she only managed to finally stop when he was about 18 months. And soon after that, he had a bad case of pneumonia. And she blames herself for that. And I didn't know about this until much later. I mean, I was I was too young to join the dots, obviously, at the time. But it was much later, we had a conversation where she's like, Oh, I didn't know about it, and I stopped and I think that's why he felt sick. So I realised that a lot of that was coming from a place of guilt, or, you know, if she stopped at 12 months, if I didn't, then I'm, you know, I'm not I'm, I'm, you know, I'm disrespecting her somehow.

Emma Pickett  

Yeah, that's a really interesting story, actually, isn't it? That's, I'm sure some people will be quite be quite shocked to hear that your mum had that very brutal experience with your, with your brother, but yet, couldn't then flip that to realise that she didn't want you to have that experience that she she didn't want you to be able to continue to breastfeed her for as long as you did. She wanted the opposite. She wanted you to do what she did. How do you sort of reconcile that in your mind? That's, that's really tough. 

Raksha  

I can empathise to an extent because when you do something and you see someone doing the opposite, you feel invalidated in your choice. I know. I mean, she made those decisions based on what information she had. I mean, it was a paediatrician who was forcing her to wean. And in fact, it was the same paediatrician who made her stop breastfeeding me at about to three months old, because she had mastitis. And he said, Oh, you need to stop breastfeeding to help that. So it was it was seemed like she was getting it from a doctor. So she she obviously thought she she was doing the right thing. Yeah. But I can see in retrospect, she realises that was not exactly the right thing to do. But when I do the opposite, she feels further invalidated in the choices she made. But I tried telling her that look, you made the best choice with, you know what information you had at the time. And now I'm making mine. So at some point, she was just okay with that. She she realised that even she realised that there's no point. I'm not, I'm not going to cave. So I think there was a point where we wouldn't talk about it anymore. But I think the relationship was pretty strained because of this.

Emma Pickett  

Yeah, gosh, that's a lot of poignant stuff going on there. And it sounds like she went through a real psychological journey watching, you have that experience. And, and, I mean, I'm sure anyone listening to this knows, you do not stop breastfeeding. When you have mastitis, the the case is true, you carry on breastfeeding. So we often find that when family members are not supportive of breastfeeding, they are looking for the user to use that word invalidated. I think that's a really important word, they are looking for their own choices to be validated. So if they could practice, you know, extinction methods, and use Control crying if they win their child under 12 months, and you don't do that, every day, you don't do that you are saying to them, you know, Hey, mom, hey, auntie, your choice wasn't the right choice. In my view, you know, even though you're not consciously saying it in your behaviour, you're essentially disagreeing with their choice, you're not validating their choice. And lots of women in from an older generation at a time when not everybody was able to have a professional career. For example, their motherhood is very central to who they are as a person and how they feel worth in the world and, and how they feel valued. And if their own child is saying, I don't think you made the right choices, Mum, I'm actually going to do something different. And I've got my research and science supports me and my peers support me. And we don't think you did the right thing. That is very painful for someone of an older generation. Whereas if you did the exact same thing as them, you're saying, Mum, you got it right. Mum, I agree with you. You're fantastic. You've made the right call, you know, I want to be like you. And lots of this stuff is on an unconscious level on a subconscious level. So I don't think there are many grandparents who say I stopped breastfeeding 12 months, I want you to do the same thing. So I feel good about myself. I don't think many people are thinking about that on that conscious level. But there is some unconscious stuff going on there. And I guess by you not choosing to stop breastfeeding. You were possibly feeding into her sense of guilt that she had a responsibility for what happened to your brother, which by the way, I'm not saying I'm not saying he did get pneumonia because she stopped breastfeeding. But scientifically, we could possibly say that that may have contributed to how severe his case was all symptoms. But you by you continuing to breastfeed you're sort of feeding some of her own guilt, potentially about the choice that she made so badly, how painful that would have been for her. And we do have to try and empathise with the people who are struggling, they're not the baddies. They're not evil people, they are struggling with their own traumas and their own history. I'd love to come back in a minute to what you're saying about how you stopped talking to her about it, because I think that's something that's so important. But before we do that, let's, let's hear from Lauren who's been listening to your story. And, Lauren, tell us about your experiences and your breastfeeding journey.

Lauren  

Okay, well, first, I just wanna say Raksha thank you so much for sharing your experience with me. It was immensely healing and enlightening for me to hear your experiences that was okay, so my journey, I have two children. My daughter is six. She's my oldest, I was unable to breastfeed her, unfortunately. And looking back now I realise it was just to a complete lack of support and knowledge. Basically, I was heartbroken that I couldn't breastfeed her. I breastfed for a week. And then it was so incredibly painful and traumatic that I stopped and started bottle feeding out. I then had my son who is now three and a half. And I think I was just super determined, because of the heartbreaking experience I'd had with my daughter. I was kind of like all the more determined that I was going to breastfeed him and I wanted to do this and it was gonna work. And also Luckily, he happened to be a really eat and one of those babies that just feeds really easily he was completely different to my daughter. So he latched on pretty easily and it all kind of worked pretty well with him so I was super lucky like that. So I'm so he's still three and a half and I am still breastfeeding him. We're still going he's showing no signs and stuff. 

Emma Pickett  

Oh, that's lovely. I'm so so had that first experience, Lauren, that is that's really tough. Um, you know, I'm very sympathetic to how your second experience I'm hoping healed some of those feelings first time around and you know, the feeling of it. So when you do breastfeed second time around, having only had a week's experience first time around, how did that sort of change your feelings about breastfeeding goals? Did you give yourself a goal? Or did you say listen if it if it happens again, and I only breastfeed for a week, that's, that's, I'm going to forgive myself that way. So where were you emotionally when you started your second breastfeeding journey? 

Lauren 

Well, I decided to be really kind on myself and not put any pressure on myself, and not kind of kind of bully myself if it didn't work out. And yeah, because it was still tricky at the beginning. I think it can always be a bit tricky when you breastfeed at the beginning. I remember saying to myself, Okay, if I can breastfeed for this next hour, that's great. I can breastfeed for this next day. That's great. And like, I just kept getting those really early days. I think for the first six weeks, I was like, Okay, if I can keep breastfeeding another day. That was brilliant. And another day of breast milk him, that'd be fantastic. And yeah, I think that's how I just kept going just in those tiny, little incremental. And then, yeah, here we are three and a half years later. 

Emma Pickett  

Yeah, I mean, I think that's a really healthy way of looking at it. It's a really difficult part. And this is a separate podcast called breastfeeding second time around. But it's a very difficult balance between not putting pressure on yourself. And I read that word bullying is an interesting word, not bullying yourself. But also having some motivation and determination to keep going and push through the challenges and ask for help and know it's okay to have some difficulties. It's very difficult to find that balance. But you obviously got it right. And here you are breastfeeding at three and a half. So even though you had that difficult experience, first time around, you still had family members who didn't want you to reach your breastfeeding goals. I mean, that's me putting it very plainly there. You still had family members who didn't say, I'm so pleased, this has been your experience second time around, and you can absolutely breastfeed for as long as you want with my support. What was going on with your family members?

Lauren  

I think they were pleased that the breastfeeding worked. But there's a very strange sort of cultural thing I certainly in my family whereby if you have a baby for the first year, you absolutely must breastfeed. And if you do not breastfeed, you're some sort of failure. You hit 12 months, and suddenly, it's like, oh, it's it's weird to still be breastfeeding. And all, you're spoiling them now. And you really want to get them off the breasts now, and it's seen as somehow odd. It's almost like the stroke of midnight on their first birthday. It's it's suddenly repulsive and unnatural. And it's these two very strange polar opposite pinions. It's like, first year have to do it. Otherwise, you're a huge failure into the second year. Absolutely not. It's very strange.

Emma Pickett  

Well, Lauren, so you've had the worst of both worlds. Your first experience, you were failing. Your first time experience you didn't make that expected 12 months second time round. You're being a weirdo carrying on past 12 months. So you had it from both sides. Lauren, I'm so sorry. Where's that sucks? Yeah, you really couldn't get in that situation. Yeah, that is grim. And that thing about 12 months is so odd, isn't it? Where the hell does that? What is it? What is this sounds strange. It's like the planets gone round the sun once and suddenly, because the calendar changes. I've even heard people saying, it turns to water at 12 months. That one, which is like, wow, how do you think that happens? What do you think happens in the sort of lobules of the rest? I'm curious about how they even think the biology changes. I mean, so what were they saying to you at 12 months? What sort of things comments are you getting? 

Lauren  

Um, well, quite bad? It was a lot of jokes. I say jokes in inverted commas. Oh, you're not getting them out again. Are you? Surely you can't be thirsty again. You'll wear them out? Oh, no, he's at the milk bar again. Is he? Yeah, lots of very awkward comments. I sort of carried on and I just didn't rise to it. So I thought, I'm gonna do it anyway. I don't care. I just kind of used like ignoring and avoidance. It all came to a head for me. And a close family member when it was last year, it was last Halloween. And I was sick. I had a cold. And I'd ask this particular family member to come over and take my kids trick or treating because I was so well, I didn't feel like I could do it. And they came over and basically launch into our tirade of you're being selfish, still breastfeed. The breastfeeding is draining you. That's why you're sick. And then I have to come over here and pick up the pieces and take care of your children. Because you're so selfish to still be breastfeeding.

Emma Pickett  

Oh, Lauren, and you're feeling ill you're getting all this when you're feeling ill as well...

Lauren  

I was on my own, my husband was working away, I felt very vulnerable. And my two young children, I had had 18 months of this by that point. And I just was at such a low point I just snapped and and me in this particular family member had a huge argument would not recommend not good idea at all. But no, it really, really blew up. And I said, I don't really see why it's any of your business. To which they replied, it's all of my business, when I have to drop my pounds and come around here and take care of your children, because you're still breastfeeding. And I think that was probably like, it was such a punch in the gut. For me, it was such it was so incredibly hurtful to hear that I actually really felt like a huge boundary being crossed there. And I actually told this person to actually leave my house. That's how strongly I felt that's how upset I was, I actually, you know, I love this person deeply. I'm one of the closest people to me in my whole life. But I actually said to them, I cannot engage with you right now. Please leave it I was that hurt and upset about it. So things got terrible. 

Emma Pickett  

Oh, Lauren, I'm so sorry you had this experience. In that in that argument, I mean, it's good for you to tell it for asking them to leave. I mean, that's, that is really powerful. Because a lot of people just crumble at that moment. And even if you weren't feeling well, you asked them to leave when you were having that argument. I don't mean to sort of trawl back through painful memories. But did you? Were you trying to make scientific arguments? What were you sort of saying to try and sort of give your side of the story?

Lauren  

I think at that point, no, I just kind of had it up to here. And I was just kind of, I can't talk I can't talk about you get up. Because I did try. In the early days, I tried to send over in like the family Whatsapp group, you know, the World Health Organisation, evidence about breastfeeding, if any news articles ever came up, I would send them that just to kind of say, oh, you know, hey, look at this, here's all the scientific research. But it didn't really, it didn't really help. It didn't. I think it's just so culturally ingrained in that particular generation, that it's almost like, after a year, a woman's body should be back to her husband in a way. That's never been said. But I really feel like that's, that's the idea. And also, I feel like there's a strong idea with that generation, who were born kind of 40s and 50s, and raise their babies in the 80s 90s. There's a strong feeling that like, a woman's body is not her own. And that a woman can't really autonomously make decisions about her own body. And it's sort of like you don't know what's best for you. I know what's best for you. Kind of, yeah, this there's no sort of like that. No feeling that a woman would know what's best for her and her child, if you know, society's against it. That's wrong. You shouldn't be doing it anymore. And it's that kind of like, that public ownership of a woman's body that I think is a strong factor here as well.

Emma Pickett  

Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a really good way of describing it. And women's bodies don't matter and children don't matter. So I've been just reading Sarah Ockwell Smith book about childism, and, you know, a little person who wants to breastfeed it to three, well, you know, their opinion doesn't matter because they're a person and, and we value them less and we value their emotional state less and, you know, it's it's society's view that matters, not the view of one little person or, or you as a mother, what you said about your husband, having a body back is really interesting thing. I don't know what's true necessarily in India, Russia, but I think in the UK, we really struggle to see women as sexual if they are also breastfeeding. The breast is very compartmentalised. It's you lactate, you stopped lactating, you're allowed to be sexual again. And, and whereas in Finland, for example, I once listened to a lecture with a father in Finland was saying, hey, in Finland, we share the breasts. He's essentially said, you know, you can be sexual at the same time as lactating. And I think people get uncomfortable because they perceive that you probably are resuming a sex life, you probably are married and doing what married people do while you're breastfeeding. There's a bit of ick around that as well, I think. And then if the, you know, if your partner and your child are both at the breast, there's it around that because it's all this sort of grey area where people can't put you into boxes, and they're so desperate to put you into boxes. So there's, there's a lot of stuff, isn't there? How did things carry on with that person? You'd ask them to leave? How did things then progress after that? 

Lauren 

They massively backed off. So I feel like a line had been drawn there. And it's almost like it had to come to a massive head. And then and then they backed off and they just sort of didn't mention it. There was another comment. Recently, we went to stay with my brother and my sister in law. My sister in law is incredible. She's amazing, and she's still breastfeeding as well her 18 month old and we were sat in their living room and my three year old wants to nurse and And I, I started to nursing. And there was my my dad had passed had passed away a few years ago. And there's a picture of him on the mantelpiece. And this family member sort of looked at me tattered and said, Your dad's watching you. As in the male, patriarch of the family is, is is looking at you like me, to me, it really cemented that idea of like male ownership of the female body. Like he's still here in spirit to put your breasts away kind of thing. That just made me laugh actually.

Emma Pickett  

Wow, I'm glad that you can laugh, because that really shows how, how far you've come. That's yeah,

Raksha  

I'm so sorry. You have to listen to these things. Absolutely.

Emma Pickett  

And and do you have what's your plan for continuing to breastfeed? Are you thinking you're going to wait for your son to cue the end of breastfeeding? Do you have any goals around ending breastfeeding?

Lauren  

I want to wait for him to wean naturally because I believe that's the best thing for his mental health and mine. However, I really I listened to your brilliant podcast on weaning a boobie monster. And that really helps me get some boundaries in place. And some more breastfeeding mothers. Because I think as I get older, that's very important. But yeah, I want to continue like, like yourselves, I've obviously done a lot of research on this. And I was reading that the natural anthropological age for humans to wean is, is anywhere between like one and seven. The reason we call the children's teeth milk teeth, is because they're still supposed to be breastfeeding while they have the milk teeth. And typically, as the first milk teeth start to fall out, that's when children would historically wean. Which makes perfect sense to me. It's also around six years old, seven years old, their immune system matures. So to me for 11, illusionary and scientific point of view makes perfect sense. But also just from my heart, and from a mental health and our our bond and our love together. I plan to let him wean naturally. 

Emma Pickett  

Yeah, beautifully described. Yeah. So some of the things you're talking about. Catherine Detweiler has written an article called the natural age of weaning, which compares us to other primates, and talks about all the markers for you know, gorillas, and orangutangs. And big primates. When did they when you know, when we look at things like when you reach sexual maturity, when you're sort of quadruple your birth weight, when all these different factors are, you know, when you lose your permanent teeth, and it looks like something like two and a half to seven years, as you say, is roughly when humans would naturally lean without all the cultural noise. And I talk about this in a bit more detail. In my book, I'm not naff and mentioning my book a lot in my podcast, but I did write a book about supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. And in that book, there are chapters on the science behind it. And hopefully some of those chapters will help people who are having these difficult conversations with family members. And there's one chapter which is about conversations with others and managing some of this pressure. So I think both of you went through a phase that a lot of moms I speak to go through where they start off trying to give the evidence, they have faith, they have a positive view of their family members, they know that they love them, and they care about them. And surely this person that loves you will listen to the truth and the reality and the science. So you know, you send the article from you know, from Kelly, Mom, you send this and that and the other you talk about the World Health Organisation and and quite often and I'd be interested in if this was your experience, nothing is good enough. No article is good enough. You know, that article comes from some breastfeeding support organisations, of course, they're going to want you to continue breastfeeding. This article is the World Health Organisation and the World Health Organisation. Well, that's talking to people in countries where they have access to no hot water. And of course, they can't bottle feed. And so therefore, that's why Breastfeeding has to be supported because they're completely ignoring the fact that the World Health Organisation very clearly says, we're talking about developing and developed countries, we're talking about industrialised countries and on destroy situations, for every body continuing to breastfeed beyond 12 months is supported by the science. And the lancet series talks about this as well. When you were sending stuff, did you hope that there would be some sort of epiphany and they would say, Well, you know what? Absolutely. You've changed my mind. We use sort of hoping for that. 

Raksha  

I would say it did work with some people, like, I mean, I would send them to my husband, and he would read it and go, like, okay, I can see why you're doing this or, you know, because we didn't have anyone else for reference. So those helped in some cases. But like you said, with older family members or someone who, who already is in this cultural shift in their head, it doesn't matter. It you they can read it, but they I don't think anything they say is coming from the fact that they don't know this stuff they know. You know, they know you're right, but the cultural analysis societal pressure is bigger than scientific facts. Yeah. So they'd rather look good in the eyes of society. And, you know, tick those boxes rather than, you know, look at the scientific facts. And like you said, they'd be waiting for a chance to refute it, like another family member of mine. I sent them the World Health Organisation thing. And they said, well, it says up to two years, and I said, No, it says a minimum of two years. They're like, No, it says, up to two years. It's those kinds of things. You can never win some arguments.

Emma Pickett  

Word blindness. Yeah, I mean, it's two years and beyond, isn't it? World Health? Oh, gosh, I mean, what you're saying about how in the end, your family members were actually was saying, Oh, that's not real life. You know, science isn't real life. But yeah, but the doctors were believed. It's very picky and choosey about which bits of science we're going to believe in which business arts we're not going to believe, isn't it?

Raksha  

But I'm not super active on social media, except when it comes to promoting something about breastfeeding, like World breastfeeding week, I'll suddenly wake up and start making posts. And there was one point during an argument, my mom said, Well, I know you're doing this just for Facebook. And that was really hard. Oh. And they will time she said, Well, it might work for Facebook, but it won't work in real life. So you know,

Emma Pickett  

Oh, Raksha, I'm sorry. Yeah. Because because breastfeeding in a two year old is not easy. Nobody is gonna do that. For Facebook. It's not like you're gonna make your millions either in the world of breastfeeding influencing. Gosh, that's yeah, there's there's a lot of pain behind those comments, aren't there? There's a lot of pain. Did you find, Lauren that anybody was being convinced by the science? Did you change anyone's minds or turn anyone around?

Lauren  

Only as Raksha was saying only my husband. He was a little bit like, Oh, this isn't really the dumb thing. But then he read all the articles. And he was like, really supportive? Unfortunately, no, not for the older generation. As we say they didn't really they weren't really interested. But I think I became quite curious about like generational breastfeeding. And from talking to them, I found out that my grandmother's who were born in the 1920s, and had their babies in the 40s, and 50s. They were told by doctors that they shouldn't breastfeed because they had been malnourished during the Second World War. And that formula, feeding was much better for their babies, it was much more nutritious. So from what I can gather, in our in one generation, a whole breastfeeding knowledge was completely wiped out. And so they were told by doctors to bottle feed, so they didn't know anything about breastfeeding. They couldn't tell their daughters anything about breastfeeding. And then as you say, you had all these sort of very sort of like, strict, draconian children's so called experts who said, you know, put them in a separate room, lead them to dry extinction method, put them on the breast for 10 minutes, then put them down with clothes or leave them and all of this and it just completely destroyed. I think all the kind of that natural bonding and that natural kind of like, mental health building that goes along with breastfeeding. And I think that when I look at you know, my, you know, elders in my family's attic, it's not really their fault because their their mothers couldn't tell them anything. They had no knowledge formula feeding this pushed them so it's kind of like they couldn't tell me anything that they didn't know.

Emma Pickett  

You're painting a to suddenly this really bleak picture on you almost like a sort of a devastation, I mean, a sort of locust plague across the world of breastfeeding. We're talking just particularly in the UK at the moment, just in terms of you know, that lost knowledge and the damage and the psychological damage that came from not just people not breastfeeding. I think what's something you said there really hit home for me, but people not parenting in a loving, affectionate connecting way, and also feeling guilty when they did so I'm sure they did. Because, you know, hormones and evolution makes you want to parent in a loving, connected way. But then if every time you do it, you feel guilty. You feel like you're doing the wrong thing. You know, we're not allowed to do this. We're spoiling our children. We're now this whole kind of rods for your back business. You're making indulgent naughty children by parenting like this. We've got a generation of parents who were really potentially quite messed up. It's actually surprising. We don't have more people struggling with lack of sort of older generation support. But we're actually in India, what do you know, historically, what's happened with breastfeeding rates in India? What's the stories?

Raksha  

The breastfeeding rates are definitely much better than here. But unfortunately, in the last 50 to 100 years, it's gone downhill. Again, it's sort of when formula came into India, which was probably when my mum When my mum was a baby, because in that generation, it was the same thing the doctors told them, breastfeeding is just for poor people, you you can afford formula. So you should give your baby formula because they will be healthier with it. And that's how my mum and her siblings were raised. Whereas one generation before that my great grandmother, she had a number of children. She breastfed all of them, she was tandem feeding. And unfortunately, she passed much before, you know, I was in when I was a child, I wish she would, you know, I'd had the conversation with her about her experience, but I've only heard about it. But she she tandem fed, she fed her last one until he was six or something fantastic, you know, so it was there two generations ago, but something in the middle, they just changed everything. But even then, traditionally, there's a lot of weight, you know, on mother's milk, it's considered really holy and all of that. So at least the initiation was there. But it was told you can start breastfeeding, but there's this magical number, where you have to stop. And beyond that it's actually unhealthy, that you're still doing it. And Lauren, like you said, you know, if I fell sick, it was because I'm breastfeeding, it makes the mother weak. It depletes nutrition from the mom's body. And I don't know where these things came from. But that's, that's the prevalent belief.

Emma Pickett 

And I know some people who have unsupportive family members, the family members believe it's for your interests, they care about you, they worry about you, you're the one who's still waking up at night, you're the one who does the bad times, you know, you're needed so much, and they're worried about you. And that's a very nice way of sort of putting it in a little package with a bow on it. So they're not being anti breastfeeding, they just love you so much. They don't want you to suffer. And they're what they're seeing you suffer. And it's hard to argue against that when when someone says we're worried about you, that's where we want you to stop. Did you have anything like that?

Raksha  

For me it would follow every conversation, every conversation with my mom, I'd be like, I'd start from a really calm place. And then she'd be like, No, I'm, I'm telling you this because I really care about you. I feel like you're getting weaker every day. And this is why I'm telling you this doesn't help.

Emma Pickett  

And then what we were saying before about the doctor, the doctors in India putting pressure to use formula. I'm sure that doctor was in the pay of a formula company. We have enough evidence now. What's been happening? I don't know if you've seen the film tigers, about practices in countries not far away from India, and it is criminal the damage that has been done.

Raksha  

It was exactly the same, they would give out free samples. And then you know, that would affect their supply. And they'd be told oh, well, you can afford formula. Why? Why are you even considering this? And it all went downhill from there.

Lauren  

Yeah, I know that my one of my grandmother's had certain people would say that after her baby, she started acting a bit melancholy, as they put it in those days. And now it sounds like she totally had postnatal depression. And she was I know that she was told by a doctor to not breastfeed and to leave her baby to cry. And I believe that contributed to her pain.

Emma Pickett  

Yeah, no, I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, I mean, gives you the science definitely points in that direction. So coming back to, you know, initially, people start giving the evidence sending the articles hoping to change minds. And then lots of people just stop, and they realise, you know what, I'm not going to win this. I cannot fight against this incredibly powerful cultural noise. I'm going to stop having these conversations. And, and it sounds like Lauren, you actually said, we're going to stop having these conversations. We're gonna stop talking about this. And how did that go down? 

Lauren  

That actually worked. And it was horrible having this huge argument with, like I say, somebody who I love very much, but I almost feel like it needed to come to that with us. We needed to have that line in the sand. And that real strong boundary asserted that. I just said, I know your views, you know, mine, you're entitled to your opinion, but I don't want to practice with it anymore. And I haven't really discussed it with them. Since there's been some other comments from another family member. But I just kind of defer. I just don't really respond. If it's put across as a joke. I just don't laugh. The notes. I don't find that very funny.

Emma Pickett 

Are they saying things actually in front of your son or is that that's in his presence? 

Lauren  

Yeah. 

Emma Pickett  

And how does that feel when that has actually been said in front of him?

Lauren  

Horrible, really horrible. And I think it's affected his bond with them. Because it's like, one thing that is so important to him. And that is his world they're criticising. And I think that's really affected, how close he's become with them. And it's also affected, like, how often we see them? I mean, we don't really see them that often, purely because I feel so incredibly uncomfortable breastfeeding around them. And that's really sad to say,

Emma Pickett  

Yeah, you know, you're not alone. Lauren, I think. I think people who make comments don't realise how the little person is absorbing it. I don't think they realise the impact it has. And, you know, children as young as 18 months, they start to work out, hang on, you're not on my side, when it comes to breastfeeding. You know, you're not my ally here. There's something going on here that I'm not, you know, I can't verbalise because I'm only 18 months old, but my instincts are telling me, I can't feel safe around you. And, you know, they pick up on microaggressions, they certainly pick up on big words and literal words. But the older he gets, the more he's going to sense these guys are not on my team. And it's gonna be very hard to repair that and regain their trust. So I really hope that people who are making critical comments realise that they could be damaging relationships that are just forming the, you know, the beginning of a lifetime connection with someone who's being impacted by by saying these things in their presence. And again, it comes down to child doesn't Oh, well, he doesn't understand what I'm saying. You can't absorb it. He doesn't realise what I'm saying. A three and a half year old definitely will pick up on somebody who's making anti breastfeeding comments. Yeah. Have you ever been tempted to say anything to him when other people aren't around? Or, or the comments haven't been so bad?

Lauren  

I have said, Don't worry, it's okay. I said, I know they don't. They don't like breastfeed in bed. It's okay. Not doing anything wrong. I don't know if that's the right thing to say. But that's what I've said. Because he did seem a little bit upset by it. They seem the older people seem quite baffled by it as well. They don't understand why they're not close. They don't understand why we never go around there. They don't seem to understand what they have he's act up with them and is difficult with them. They don't seem to be putting two and two together. I don't really know. 

Emma Pickett  

Yeah, I guess it's I don't value breastfeeding. Yeah, if you don't value breastfeeding, you're not going to understand how essential it is to a little person's life is you're not going to make that connection, you're not going to realise that they their lack of trust is because of your views of breastfeeding. So that they are really missing out on they did you find were actually that you had to protect? Did your did your daughter hear anything being said? Do you think she's a woman?

Raksha  

She was strangely resilient? She couldn't care less? I mean, she's still like that to this day. And I wish I could be more like, but no, she, she was she was very unaffected. But she did. She did, like you said they did strain her relationship with these people. It was usually extended family members who would make these comments and the next time she would see them, she would just cling to me and not be anywhere around them. And I could see why. Because I don't think she remembers the exact words they use. But she kind of maybe remembers how they made her feel at the time. Yeah. So I think I realised that the point that I can't control these things, they make their relationship with my child, and if they are not putting in the effort, I mean, they may not need, they don't need to understand it. But they just need to understand that this is important to her. And just respect it from that perspective, even if they don't agree with it. But if they can't do that, it's not on me to repair this relationship. Honestly, it's like I, I made my peace with that at some point. 

Emma Pickett  

That's a really healthy way of looking at it. Yeah, absolutely. Right. This is you can't change someone's relationship with someone else. That's not your responsibility. You also can't change someone's mind. You know, people, I think when they stop breastfeeding, and they learn more about it, and they go on social media and become breastfeeding advocates, they almost feel like they're failing, if they haven't convinced everyone else around them. How significant and how important breastfeeding is. But you cannot convince someone who's dealing with decades and decades of, of conditioning and potentially some personal trauma as well. You know, so weirdly, one of the messages I want to come out of this podcast is you cannot win this battle necessarily. And that's okay. It's okay not to win this battle. It's okay. If your mom doesn't suddenly send you a breastfeeding card and say, Oh my God, I've had an epiphany. And we're so lucky that you're still breastfeeding your magic and wonderful and what a lucky grandson I have, you know, wouldn't that be great? Oh, my God, I've just read this article, and I suddenly realise how awful I've been and you're fantastic. And thank you for breastfeeding, that that is the dream. That's what happens in the movie version, the real version. The real version is probably they're not going to come to that realisation and that's okay and it's not failure that we didn't convince them. It's not our failure that we didn't find that one magic article, there was that concept in, in trolling that I talked about sometimes called Sea lining where, you know, you try and give some evidence, they say, it's not enough, you try and give them something else. They say, it's not enough, you keep going, you keep going, you can go on forever, and never convince somebody so. So you have to sometimes say, I'm not going to win this. But do you love me? Do you trust me? Do you believe that I'm going to be a good mom, because sometimes I'm going to do things that you don't agree with. And you know, I might send them to a school that you don't, you know, they might not wear the wrong shoes in the winter, we might not put the coat on when you want to put the coat on, we might eat different things. I'm not going to be the mom that you are exactly. But you have helped me to be who I am today. And I might make different choices. And I hope you're going to love me and respect my choices. And when it comes to breastfeeding, maybe we shouldn't talk about it. Because I don't think we're gonna come to the same page. But when you love me and support me and understand that even though I'm making a different choice, I'm still going to need your care and your respect. You know, you do things I don't respect, I'm going to do things you don't respect. But that's what people they rub up against each other.

Raksha  

Yeah, I wish I'd had this conversation, like you mentioned earlier. So if anyone's listening, you know, and if things are starting to get difficult, I would say just have this exactly what you said, I'ma have this conversation right there. And just agree to disagree. Really, I wish I'd done that earlier. Because the kind of damage it has caused to a lot of my relationships, not just with my mum. I mean, as much as I want to have empathy. And you know, hindsight, is a powerful thing. But I don't think I can really go back and repair the damage. It's done. But I wish I'd had this conversation earlier before more hurtful. Said, I agree. Yeah.

Emma Pickett 

Yeah, I mean, I would hope that maybe somebody would send this podcast or to a family member, and say, you know, we've been having difficult times talking about breastfeeding. And I want you to listen to the experiences of these two women. And just to understand how negative comments about breastfeeding affect me, they affect my child, and they're going to affect your relationship with your grandchild or your you know, niece or nephew. And potentially, they're going to affect your relationship with me. And you might think you're just making some comments and the user, you may think they're coming from a place of worrying about me, but you don't understand. It's okay, you don't understand, I don't need you to fully understand. But I need you to appreciate that, that we're at risk here. If you don't make a bit more of an effort to empathise with my choice, I'm not asking you to agree with it. 100%. But, but we're in it, we're on rocky ground here. And as you say, relationships don't always get repaired if we're not super careful. And we always are going to have that little protective voice in our head that says, Well, what's what's the next thing they don't think they're going to disagree with? What's the next thing, you know, I'm not going to be doing what they want me to do. And when we're new parents, and we're breastfeeding, we're so vulnerable, it's such a vulnerable time in our lives, we need that support. And to not get it from the people who should care from us the most is can really hit hard and you know, be incredibly painful. And, and the two of you, I'm, you know, we've just met, I can see how strong you are. And I can see how you've come through this with a strength. Is there anything you would want to say to somebody who's listening to this right now thinking, Oh, my God, I don't know what I'm going to do about this. Let's imagine it's their relationship with their mother, for example, what am I going to do about this? What messages would you want them to take away? 

Raksha  

I think exactly what you just mentioned, like, have that conversation, don't be afraid to have that conversation, because it is a difficult conversation to have. Sometimes it's easier to do it with your mom than if it's your mom in law, for example, that's, you know, that adds more another layer of complexity, get your partner to have that conversation. If, you know, get as many people as you can on your side, and just have that conversation and tell them that look. You might not agree with this, you might not see why I'm doing this, but it is important to me, and we're gonna stop discussing this now. And hope that they hold their boundaries as well. But that you you can't you can't win sometimes, sometimes you can. Sometimes you can't, you can start off with sending links and articles and and if that doesn't work, then you know, just have the conversation and don't talk about it. 

Lauren  

Yeah, you know, what's best for you and your child and only you know, if you feel it's right to carry on breastfeeding, then you think that I think we are the first generation I was born in the 80s. I think we're like a breakthrough generation who is trying to pair with intuitively and lean respect we understand mental health we understand evolutionary bonding There's no handbook for us. Like, we're saying, Oh, I wish we could go back and have those conversations differently. We had like, wrapping up the rulebook here from previous generations where we're trying to kind of pare in a lot more, yeah, gently and intuitively and naturally than previous generations have. And I think we should pat ourselves on the back for that.

Emma Pickett 

Definitely do some back patting, for sure. And, and, you know, it's, it's hard to break cycles, it is so hard, you have to be so brave and so strong. And, and I know the both of you have had support from your partners, and for some people, the person not supporting them as their partner, that's an even more difficult conversation. And perhaps that's something I need to do a separate episode on. But as you say, the mother in law is a tricky one, because you may not have that direct personal relationship with him. That's another whole layer and and if you can get your partner to have that conversation even better, I think there are certainly the ground rule of we don't talk about this in front of the child, I think that is an app. So if you want to talk about this with me, please, can you wait until it's just the two of us? I don't want this to be another. We didn't they don't understand what I'm saying? No, actually, they do. You know, even children as young as six months will pick up when their mother is tense, and something's going on that doesn't feel comfortable. And, and certainly they weren't, you start hitting, you know, 1214 months, they're literally going to understand some of the dynamics of a conversation for sure. So I think that's a simple ground rule. I think one of the things I might also add is that not all these conversations can happen verbally, sometimes that is very emotional. And it can be easier to actually write it down. And one of the things I sometimes talk about prior to Christmas, because that for some people, Christmas is a particular hot point, because that's when we're going to be staying with family members who maybe don't see us breastfeeding every day, we're then going to be staying in their home sleeping in their homes, cosleeping, breastfeeding, you know, doing all the things that we know they disapprove of, in a family home with lots of other people and alcohol and pressure of getting meals prepared. There's, there's a lot of emotional intensity. And Christmas can be some time when people feel particularly nervous. And I sometimes say you know, just actually I'd actually write a letter, or write an email in advance and say, I am still breastfeeding, we are going to be co sleeping. If you want to talk to me about breastfeeding. We're going to can you please do it? Shall we do it in this setting? But to be really honest, I'm sort of hoping we don't. Because, you know, I want to enjoy this this holiday. I'm not going to stop breastfeeding. This is why it matters to me. And I'd like you to respect that decision. And, and sort of almost in advance, say set lay down some ground rules. So you're not having this the minute you walk in the door. 

Lauren 

I just remembered I actually did that. I completely forgot I did that. Last holiday. We all went on holiday together last summer. did say in advance. I said, Look, just to throw it out there. I will be breastfeeding. I will be co sleeping. Can we just like just get over that. Like it'll just have a nice holiday. Enjoy the holidays. So get over it.

Emma Pickett  

Did it work? Did they get over it?

Lauren  

It did. I didn't get any comments at all, last holiday. So that was that was good. 

Emma Pickett  

That's a really fantastic. Yeah, I mean, so in advance, they can roll their eyes when they read the lesson. You don't have to see them roll their eyes, they can, you know, there's no shock factor when you bring your breast out for the first time because you've prepared them and you've told them it's going to happen. Sometimes, yeah, sometimes a bit of pre empting it is definitely the way to go for sure. What do you think's going to happen, Lauren, as you're breastfeeding continues? 

Lauren  

Um, well, just, I don't know. I would hope that they can at least keep their comments to themselves and respects my decision to still breastfeed. Because if anything, I'd like them to have a close relationship with my child. And I, I want him to have a post, you know, that bond for them and not feel touched and criticised. And that's my hope, I think. Yeah. I'm going to uncharted territory here. I don't know what I'm doing.

Emma Pickett  

Although you are in control of it, and to a certain extent, aren't you? We can I mean, it's a cliche to say it, but we, we can't control how other people behave. But we can control how we react to how other people behave. It sounds as though you've got to a place of feeling more in control of your reaction and yes, feeling steady are about to say that's true?

Lauren  

100% 100% I'm much more Yeah, let's agree to disagree. I'm not talking I'm not having this conversation. Especially not very my child. Let's all move on. I feel a lot more calm that a lot more confident. And I will continue to breastfeed Ted until he naturally weans.

Emma Pickett  

Yeah, well, lucky Ted. And there's I think, you know, sort of final words I would say is having empathy for these people if you possibly can, you know, they are often coming from a place of being very damaged and scared, scared and worried and confused. used and literally don't understand what you're doing. And, and, and that people say stupid things and they lash out and they sometimes make comments that they wish they could take back, but they can't because they've dug themselves a hole. And if we can have any empathy for these people it can help us to, to move forward and to understand, you know, we cannot fix them. We are not psychotherapists, we are not experts on cultural history, we, we can't fix them, but we can understand where it's coming from. And we can just work on how to protect ourselves and protect our children and, and being an advocate for your child is what this is all about. They can't speak up, they can't defend themselves, they can't send the articles. So they need us to be strong. And there is nothing sadder than someone who gives up breastfeeding because of external pressure from others. You know, the person who does stop because their mothers given them such a hard time, they're finally ground down. I promise in 20 years time, people will look back on that decision with such a sense of sadness and regret. Everyone deserves to breastfeed for as long as they want to. Is there anything finally you'd like to say, Raksha, before we, we wind up?

Raksha  

I would say don't be afraid to be the bad guy sometimes. Because like you said, you know, I find that it helped big especially after my daughter turned three, the pressure was incredible. But then I used to tell people what I'm going to feed her till she goes to university. And then I would say that with a very straight face and sound really serious about it. So I think people just gave up on me at a point. And honestly, it felt good, wouldn't it? I mean, if this is what being the bad guy is in country, and sometimes it has to come to that when it's okay. Hindsight is always brilliant. Once your child's grown up, no one's going to remember that or, you know, you can always say I told you so later. So I would say just do whatever you need to do what feels right to you. 

Emma Pickett  

I love your comment about university. I think actually, there's a, there's a deep message there about using humour because these these conversations can get so intense, and emotionally fraught. And diffusing it with humour can suddenly make everyone remember Hang on, I do know this person I do. We are connected, we do care about each other, I am being daft. This is getting too much. And you might find that by you using humour, you sort of defuse the tension and help somebody kind of look at things from different perspective. Yeah, straight face, I'm going to keep going to university. You know, that's definitely the way the way for some people to go for sure. Thank you very much. Both of you, I am so honoured that you've shared your stories, and I really hope that people have been inspired by by your strength. And if somebody feels like they're willing, you know, reach out to a lactation consultant, reach out to a breastfeeding counsellor or a peer supporter, reach out to a friend who still breastfeeding you are not alone. So many of us have been in your shoes and we know what it's like to not have the support of family and, and sounds cheesy, but I want to say on behalf of your child, thank you for still breastfeeding them. Thank you for having the strength to continue, despite not having the pressure because they not may not be able to verbalise that to you but I know that they would want to, they're so grateful that you are strong and you are standing up to this pressure. And there are lots of inspiring mothers and parents out there who are doing this. So thank you. Thank you, both of you. 

Lauren  

Thank you.

Raksha  

Thanks for having me.

Emma Pickett  

Great pleasure. 

Emma Pickett  

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram @EmmaPickettIBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.