Lucy’s story - saying goodbye to a breastfeeding journey

Few people who practise mostly child-led weaning know when their last feed is. Feeds tend to get few and far between until one day, you realise that it’s probably over. When that happened for today’s guest, Lucy, she chose to mark the occasion by writing a beautiful letter to her daughter, Ivy, which she shares here. 

However, Ivy had other plans! She returned to breastfeeding, alongside her younger sister, Erin. Lucy continues to then tandem feed both girls, now 5 and 2 but Ivy is very close to the end of her journey. Lucy also shares her struggles with aversion and tongue tie.

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

Resources mentioned - 

Hearts Milk Bank - Human Milk Foundation https://humanmilkfoundation.org/hearts-milk-bank/

When Breastfeeding Sucks: What you need to know about nursing aversion and agitation (lllgbbooks.co.uk) https://www.lllgbbooks.co.uk/store/p237/WhenBreastfeedingSucks.html

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Emma Pickett  00:46

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode, I'm really happy to be talking to Lucy Ling from Cambridgeshire, who is a mother of two and she's breastfeeding both her daughters Erin, who's two years, two months, and you might hear in the background because Erin is taking her time to go to bed, which is absolutely fine. We are completely supportive of little people having autonomy and agency, although we'd also like it when they go to bed as well. And she's also got Ivy, who is nearly five and both her daughters are breastfeeding at the moment. But this is a story about tandem feeding. And it's also a story of what her self weaning journey might look like. Because Ivy is very much at the end of her breastfeeding experience. And there's been a few false starts of thinking she was finished and then she wasn't finished. And it's I think it's going to be useful to hear about what that experience is like when you really do have a child who's very much leading the way. Thank you very much for joining me today, Lucy.

Lucy Ling  01:40

Oh, thank you for having me. Thank you for having us. I had a plan that she'd be asleep by now. But you know, they know they know when you've got something to do. 

Emma Pickett  01:50

Don't worry, it's I'm honoured to have on my little screen and being able to see her little head and it's not a prominent if at any point you need to pause. That's absolutely fine. Don't feel this is this is not the most important thing. The most important thing is, is you know Erin being happy and having a nice bedtime. So let's talk a little bit about your daughter. So you've got Erin, who is obviously breastfeeding right now this minute. 

Lucy Ling  02:11

Yeah. 

Emma Pickett  02:11

And how often does Erin breastfeed in a sort of typical 24 hours or a lot?

Lucy Ling  02:17

So basically, so I changed my career after I had Erin. And I now only work one evening and one morning a week. So I'm with her the rest of the time. she breastfeeds whenever I sit down. Actually she'd even do it. If I was in standing. she could, she could tweet. She feeds a lot. She's poorly at the moment. So she's definitely feeling a bit more than normal today. Okay, and then yeah, she's still feeds through the night. And actually, I'd had in my head that I'd probably want to kind of start night weaning around too, because Ivy kind of self like weaned at that age. And I thought there's no way I can, I can have that level of sleep deprivation for more than two years, you know, I thought the two would be my limit. But actually, she's got quite bad eczema. So we find that actually, the breastfeeding through the night is the only thing that settles her. So I'm, I'm not gonna give it my best to anytime soon. 

Emma Pickett  03:22

Yeah, I think there are lots of people who can relate to their eczema and sleep is not an easy combination. And having the sedatives of breast milk to be able to sort of knock around between sleep cycles is definitely handy. But yeah, so I'm sorry if that means you're not getting much sleep either. That sounds that sounds pretty intense.

Lucy Ling  03:37

Yeah.

Emma Pickett  03:38

So you're co sleeping, I'm guessing. And you're, and she's feeding regularly through the night. And if you're sensible, I'm guessing you don't know how frequently that is. Because you're not looking at the clock. You're just letting it happen. And hopefully getting some sense of you being able to sleep between sleep cycles as well. Yeah. How do you feel about your sleep right now? How are you feeling about your own sleep today?

Lucy Ling  03:59

I feel a bit better about it, because I went to bed at eight o'clock last night. But if you'd asked me yesterday, I was in quite a desperate position. Because yeah, it's not even so much the feeding through the night because like you say, you know, you just kind of drift in and out of sleep and she latches on. It is the scratching the eczema that kind of then all wakes us all up fully. So that's the most disruptive part. So I kind of don't mind little latches on and then back to sleep bit. So yeah, we're definitely not getting as much sleep as I would like to she's just trying to lie down so might lie down.

Emma Pickett  04:35

And actually what you're saying about how this is not, you know, fairy tale breastfeeding. This is not roses and petals and little butterflies around your head like Snow White. This is This is tough. But yeah, it's still better than not breastfeeding. I think that's that's, that's an important story to hear. I mean, some people imagine that they have to breastfeed a two year old until it starts to become uncomfortable and then they must stop. But actually lots of people who do contain be breastfeeding aren't necessarily having a wonderful time. And it's not necessarily super easy. It's just a tool that they are using in a difficult situation to help them manage. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about her eczema. Is that something you're getting support for? Are you happy about the sort of medical support you're getting?

Lucy Ling  05:15

Yeah, we're getting support, we kind of went down the medical route for a while. And like the things we were trying, I sort of steroids and things weren't really working so well, or they'd worked for a little bit and then stop working. So we actually did a lot of kind of research into her gut microbiome. And we've kind of tried different things. So now we're kind of working with a more sort of holistic doctor, and we're trying probiotics and trying to boost her immune system. So yeah, it seems to me it's slower, obviously, than magic creams and potions. She seems to be getting a little bit better. And we're going abroad for a few months in the autumn. And I'm really hoping that a big boost of vitamin D will help. I'm just getting older as well. I think. Like it's definitely better than it was this time last year. But yeah, I mean, yeah, I don't know how I would get back, get her back to sleep in the middle of the night. If we weren't feeding. I think we'd be awake for a lot longer. So I am really grateful for the breastfeeding. It is hard, but I don't know what to do without it at this point.

Emma Pickett  06:18

Yeah, yep. That makes a lot of sense. And then we have Ivy. Ivy is in bed right now. Ivy's nearly five. When was the last time that Ivy breastfed? 

Lucy Ling  06:28

Um,  I don't know if she had any milk this morning. But I think yeah, she tried. She latched on this morning. And she said, Oh, there's no milk. And I said, Well, that's because the rubies are tired. So let's go and have bran flakes instead. But yeah, she probably fit and she's not very well, either. She's got her super cold. So she definitely kind of only really wants milk. Now, if she's a bit under the weather. Yeah. So come on to talk about more, I'm sure I thought she'd fully weaned about probably six weeks ago. And then she got scarlet fever. And then yeah, she kind of went from not having had any milk at all for a week, to like back to every day. And it took her a while to get over that she had a couple of illnesses back to back. And then I'd say we're kind of down to now, maybe feeding twice a week. And it's only in the morning. So if when we wake up, her sisters having a feed, and there's like the opportunity, she will latch on as well. But if she wants to go and wait on my partner or dad up, she'll go and say I can go watch telly with daddy. So, you know, she's definitely nowhere near as attached to it as she used to be. Even a year ago. I don't need a bottom change. Sorry. Yeah.

Emma Pickett  07:47

I mean, do you want to do you want to pause and do anything? You're very welcome, if you want to

Lucy Ling  07:50

know so it's okay. [Ivy interrupts with several 'please's]

Lucy Ling  07:57

All right. We'll carry on I think.

Emma Pickett  07:58

Okay. She's got the best pleases. There's a pretty darn good, I don't know how anyone can resist those. So you've, that you when you thought Ivy had self weaned then what was the longest gap when she wasn't feeding?

Lucy Ling  08:16

Well, it was sort of it got to five days. I realised Oh, hang on a minute. She's not. She's not asked for milk for like five days. And it started on a Monday, because my invoice was staying. And they don't normally stay. They live nearby, but they were having some work done on their home. So they came to stay for two nights. And I think because it was such a novelty. She got up both of those mornings, and went into their bedroom to see them. She's used to my parents saying because they live in a different country. But this is, you know, brand new. That's right. Yeah, fine. She doesn't want milk those days. So that was the Monday Tuesday and then they went home. And then on the Wednesday I didn't have any but I didn't really think anything of it. And then it got to like the Friday lunchtime and it just hit me. I was like, Ah, she hasn't had milk since Sunday. Oh my goodness. And I was sat in the car with Aaron in the back having asleep. And I just felt compelled to kind of write this little like story. 

Emma Pickett  09:18

Yeah, you wrote this really lovely letter, which I'm going to ask you to read if you don't mind. I don't know how Aaron would feel about your reading that way. She's rude. She's next to you. But it would be lovely to hear you read it now. This is this is something you wrote. When at that five day mark when it looked like it had self weaned and I think it's just it's a you know, it goes on a little bit we'll get it's gonna take a few minutes for you to read it. But I think for anyone in this space for anyone in this kind of like, Is my child going to self weed or not? I think it's really special. So how do you feel about reading it now?

Lucy Ling  09:48

I might cry. But yeah, that's fine. It might send her to sleep. Actually, she does look a bit more sleepy. So this might work as a bedtime story. Yeah, I can.

Emma Pickett  09:59

Okay. Perfect whenever you're ready.

Lucy Ling  10:02

My dear Ivy, it's a freezing cold March day. And you're playing with Maggie our lovely babysitter, while I write this next to your sister as she naps. You wouldn't know it, but today is a very big day. It's not Christmas or anyone's birthday. Not that kind of big day. No, it's big because it's already already emotional. Sorry. Okay.

Emma Pickett  10:25

No need to apologise. We never need to say sorry. Before you carry on tell me when you're obviously she's she's still breastfeeding. she breastfed this morning. But yet reading this is it because you are thinking about when she will eventually win? Is that what is that what's happening with you emotionally? Tell me what's happening. 

Lucy Ling  10:41

I'm feeling tearful. I think I think it's because No, because I think the act of writing this kind of made me ready for her to win. So I know it's coming. And, and I'm okay with that. But writing this kind of brought together all of my emotions, I think from the past five years or so, and there's been a lot of them. So I think it's just, it just starts to bring up you know, everything that's happened, because it's been a long journey and a rocky one at times. Yeah. So I think that's what's going.

Emma Pickett  11:19

Well, I'm very honoured that you're sharing it with us. Thank you. Okay, so you just said, it's not Christmas. It's not anyone's birthday. Not not that kind of big day, kind of big day cueing you up. 

Lucy Ling  11:29

Okay. No, it's big, because it's now five days since he last called into bed, and asked me for morning boobie, to share with or rather fight over with your sister, while the three of us snuggle in bed, which has been our lovely exhausting and sometimes maddening ritual for the last year or so. I've no idea if this trend will continue. Since becoming your mummy, I've learned that so many things about little children are phases, you'll do one thing for a certain amount of time, and then all of a sudden, you don't do that thing anymore, as parents can never quite predict when these phases will end. But if this isn't a face, then this means that we are indeed coming to the end of our booby journey. One which has been much longer, harder, easier, more beautiful, surprising and inspiring than I ever could have imagined it would be when we first set out on it together late on August 8, and five summers ago. Until this week, there have only been two or three other days when we haven't had boobie the two days I spent in hospital having your sister and the mornings when we've got up early to go on holidays. It feels as natural and normal to us now as breathing or sleeping. So it's strange to think that we won't always be doing it. When you're old enough to read this letter, you might not even remember much about having baby. And that's very strange, too. It wasn't always so easy and natural for us. Now, in the first few days and weeks, we both found it really hard. Can you imagine that? When you first came out and by fire, which is what you used to call the scar where the doctors took you and your sister out of my tummy, I had to have a lot of help from the midwives and from daddy and lots of other people to learn how to do it. You weren't happy at all and you would shout at my boobies for the milk that you weren't getting. I was so upset. I'd waited so long to be your mummy and I desperately wanted to feed you for my body. That's what it was designed to do. You across and I was saw and we had many nights that both of us crying. I hated that I couldn't give you the food and comfort you needed as I was trying my very best. Finally, a lovely lady came along and sorted out the problem with your tongue which had been stopping you getting enough milk. The first time you latched after your tongue tie division. I felt relief that I've not felt before or since said that's what it's meant to feel like I said to daddy, and then we were off. Things are still a bit up and down for a while you were a bit skinny after not having had enough milk for a while. So we had to have lots of baby from me and from bottles of mommy's milk. We managed to give you some milk from some kind strangers and even a bit from Auntie Claire who left them in the freezer when she came to stay. Soon enough, you are getting chubby and I stopped crying when strangers in the street commented on how petite you were. Once you had cracked the secret to having boobie we literally had it everywhere. I was so proud of us for learning this special trick that could feed you comfort you and send you to sleep all in one. It was magical. I'll never forget the first time we had baby out and about without it feeling tricky. We were in the zoology museum cafe in Cambridge, you were three months old. And as you latched on, I looked around at the other families and realised that I was feeding you without checking every last detail. You would just drink Looking away and I could sit and relax and watch the world go by. After that we had b2b and restaurants that cathedral trains airports on the tube in dentists waiting rooms in the car, the Park Gardens, the bath, on the toilet. Everywhere we went, that's where we had boobie. Sometimes older ladies would give us a thumbs up and I loved that. Then one funny day when you were about eight months old, we had to stop going anywhere. For a while, there was a really nasty bug going around. So we all had to stay home to not catch it. We had a lot of baby then in the garden and in the house. And in this thing on our daily walk. I'd heard about this thing called weaning, which is where babies stop having boobie. And I thought that would slowly but surely happen once he started having the same food that me and daddy ate. Because you did love food, especially greek yoghurt porridge and apples. That I think partly because we were at home so much, and there wasn't a lot to do, and partly because it was so delicious and lovely. You had more boobie than ever before. Soon after that I had to go back to work. I didn't want to leave you. But the nasty bug meant that I didn't have to go on any more work trips. So we stayed home and grandma looked after you. And you had baby a few times while I was talking to colleagues on video calls. Most of the time they didn't even know it was our funny secret. We kept on having baby throughout your second summer, then your second Christmas. And it was always so helpful whenever you had a cold or felt poorly, or your teeth were hurting. When you learn to talk, you would say I got snot one baby. Baby always helped. He told me when he got a bit older and even better talking. Before long your sister was growing in my tummy. And then it started to be a bit uncomfortable for me to have baby say sometimes I would say we needed to stop earlier than you wanted to. And you would cry a lot. And sometimes I would too. I didn't want it to hurt. I wanted to keep feeding you. But it also made my babies hurts sometimes because my body was tired from growing your sister. You told me that the milk tasted funny. And that you only liked the taste of the milk from the breastfeeding boobie. We never quite worked out which one you were, which one you were referring to. During your third Christmas Bibi stopped working to get you to sleep at night. So you me and Daddy would venture out into the cold every night and go for a drive to look at the Christmas lights. And you would fall asleep that way instead. I did wonder if we would stop having booby before your sister arrived. But I'm very glad we didn't. On Valentine's Day your sister Erin arrived and I had to leave you to go to the hospital and get her out of my fire. The night before she arrived I offered you some baby before bed and he said no thank you, mommy. That's how I knew that she was on her way. You showed me that you would be okay without me while I was gone. When I came home from the hospital with Aaron two days later, you wanted lots of baby I was sore and tired and my fire hurt a lot. So we have to be very careful. But we managed to have baby all three of us. You've seen so huge next your sister and I cried a lot because I realised that you are not my littlest baby anymore. So he still needed me so maybe even more than ever before. It was a very confusing but lovely time. For a few months after your sister was born, you went back to having loads of boobies. The taste was delicious again, and there was more of it than ever before. So we went off mummy and daddy food completely. Once we got the hang of having baby all three of us, we have some lovely snuggles together. Very lucky with both from the BBC in the afternoon. And then I would have a little rest as well. It's tiring looking after two such beautiful daughters. One day and everyone was tiny. We had to take you to the hospital because you had a very poorly ear. We had baby all day long that day. And it stopped you from shaking with the fever that was raging through your body. magical stuff. I can't remember exactly when it happened. But sometime before your fourth birthday, you decided you only needed baby once a day. So we'd have a big morning struggle with your sister and you'd have a baby. Sometimes everyone would try and pinch the baby you're having. And you both end up crying and hitting each other. And sometimes it was peaceful and even after you started only having morning boobie, you would always make an exception for the days when we went to boob group, which is what we call that lecture at Cambridge. And you would feed a lot there. snuggled on my lap. Baby, something about hearing lots about breastfeeding reminded you how much you loved it. But we both loved having IV and mummy baby. And that lovely group of mommies feeding their babies and toddlers couldn't help but notice that you didn't ask for baby at the last meeting, you started to wonder if it would soon be the day when you would stop altogether. You carried on after that, every morning until just this past week. Sometimes I've had the feeling that you have to be forever, if you could. But now here we are. That is definitely approaching. I thought it was near before. But this time, we both know it's coming. It's because you're becoming such a big, strong and independent. doesn't need me quite so much in that way anymore, which is wonderful and natural. I'm still getting sad. And I've cried a lot as I write this, because it's what's called the most beautiful, life changing. And wonderful one of my life. Thank you, my dear IV. And for giving us the gift of feeding until you are ready to eat no more. It taught me more than you'll ever realise. Hope your body will remember all the special baby times we had even after the time you've forgotten about it. Love and boobies forever, mummy.

Emma Pickett  21:38

Thank you, Lucy. Thank you Well done for getting through it. Thank you so much for sharing that. 

Lucy Ling  21:43

You're welcome. And Erin's gone to sleep. 

Emma Pickett  21:45

So it's a real honour to hear that and hear those words. And it's so beautifully written and beautifully expressed. It's just a really special thing. And I think you need to sign love and babies forever. Whenever you write the rest of her life when she's when she's 50. That's a sign that. Yeah, that's gorgeous. So you were sitting in a car writing? Yeah. And what? What led to you writing it in that moment? Why did you want to write it?

Lucy Ling  22:15

I just had this urge just came over me. It was just Yeah. When I was like, Oh, my goodness has been five days. It must therefore be the end. Have to capture the moment. It was just one of those things that just kind of like flowed out. And Aaron actually woke up halfway through and I was like, No, I haven't finished. So watch, I don't know, half of frozen or something while I finished it and wrote it in one go. I just kind of had to. And yeah, yeah,

Emma Pickett  22:44

it's really special. Really, really special. And then the way you say thank you. That's that's a really lovely way to do it. I mean, it's just really special to talk to her directly. You talk about those early weeks and early days when you were you had Aaron, and you talked about how you were all crying together. And that was it. That sounds like it was a really tough time. And you talked about how she seemed huge next to Erin and you cried a lot because you realise she wasn't your littlest baby anymore. Do you remember what you're thinking about in those moments? 

Lucy Ling  23:17

Yeah, I remember feeling really overwhelmed and really almost guilty. That you know, she did need me so much still. And I brought this new tiny creature it also needed me you know, even more similar but different ways. Yeah, just feeling like we hadn't we hadn't prepared or prepared as much as possible, but kind of still didn't feel prepared. Yeah, just just lots of kind of overwhelmed and exhaustion as well, I suppose. But it was also lovely. No, like we would snuggle on the bed. And you know, as I said in the letter, like, I'd get them both to sleep one on each side of me and then kind of have a day's myself and it was kind of magical, you know, until she dropped a nap. We did that quite often. And you know, looking back I'd love to have a triple afternoon nap

Emma Pickett  24:21

That is the holy grail of tandem feeding is everyone getting to sleep at the same time. That is magic when that happens. 

Emma Pickett  24:30

A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book published by Pinter Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE10, Makes Milk Pickett Emma 10. Thanks. 

Emma Pickett  25:18

Talk to me a little bit about when when you had Erin and you came home at that point Ivy's breastfeeding had slowed down and you didn't necessarily know what her breastfeeding would be like after Erin had been born. Were you kind of leaving yourself open to options? Or did you did you want to feed once or twice a day? What are you thinking about what Ivy's breastfeeding might look like in a world of tandem feeding?

Lucy Ling  25:42

I knew we would tandem feed. I felt like I nearly had to wean her in pregnancy, not getting my words out properly. I had been in the pregnancy with Erin. So the first trimester was okay, but tiring. And then second trimester. That's when she self note weaned. So that was great. Because finally I was getting, you know, a full night's sleep. And we were still co sleeping. So she was right next to me, but until uncomfortable with a bigger kind of bump. I was like, Yeah, finally I'm getting some sleep. This is great. But she was still feeding a lot through the day. And then I think it was kind of beginning of the third trimester. And I started to have these feelings of aversion and I didn't know what they were to begin with, because I've never really had heard of a version but didn't really know what it meant. But for me, it meant just feeling absolutely kind of sounds awful to say but repulsed by a feeding, just absolutely just not wanting to have her anywhere near me while she was trying to feed. Because she would still try to feed to sleep, even though it wasn't really working to get her to sleep. So we'd have these long evening sessions of her trying to have milk and me just getting really agitated and wanting to kind of you know, brush off my body and, and just feeling kind of like, what is going on?This is awful, you know, gone from loving breastfeeding, and it being a magic trick for everything that could ever go wrong for a toddler. Pretty much. Just hating it, especially at nighttime. But I remember Christmas was born on the 14th of February. I remember on Boxing Day just kind of being totally exhausted. But also feeling like but we're not ready. Ready to stop breastfeeding, so what am I going to do? 

Emma Pickett  27:51

Do you remember those moments? Did you have anything that helped? I mean, did you have any strategies? I don't know if you've read any? I mean, I know you're obviously going to electronic meetings, which was a big was a big help. Did you have any sort of practical things that made a difference in those really difficult moments? 

Lucy Ling  28:06

Yeah, so I did read. I read the book when breastfeeding sucks. And that was really helpful. You know, she talks about kind of identifying your triggers. And I found that definitely, if I was feeling dehydrated, or you know, especially exhausted and depleted and hadn't had enough sleep, that was definitely a trigger. Or like if she was having kind of big emotions, just to see if Iran was asleep, she is the last to get her to sleep. You know, she was kind of having those big emotions and sort of like being really physical when I was trying to feed her I remember remember, kind of meltdown in centre parks when I was 38 weeks pregnant in the swimming pool and asking my mum to get me a pint of water that I don't quite quickly because I found that yeah, taking more water on board really helped. Yeah, so not not huge things. But those little things help, just literally has been our most amazing support throughout our whole journey. And I think talking to other people who'd fed older children about boundaries at that point. And I think we discussed that quite a lot in the weaning group that I joined around that time. 

Emma Pickett  29:29

So we've we met because Lucy was a member of one of my weaning groups. And we talked a bit about and as you actually rightly say, a winning book is not necessarily a regroup as necessarily winning group it was it was not a winning group. In your particular groups case, it was a it was a group that was talking about boundaries and finding a balance and being able to have a bit more self care within a breastfeeding relationship. And in that particular case, nobody felt they needed to breastfeeding at the end of the lifetime of the group if I remember accurately?

Lucy Ling  29:59

They did it and I remember you saying on the first call, you don't have to be a martyr to it. And I think that's what I had been doing. So, you know, I did start to put some boundaries in place and also talk to her about it and have now started using those same strategies with Erin. And one of the triggers is actually her like twiddling my other nipple, because I found that I could just about managed to feed her when I was feeling the aversion but I couldn't have any other like physical contact. So her kind of having a hands, although for me, would be really triggering. And so I think you're so advised to talk to them about it outside of like, the heated moment. So I remember saying to her one day, we were having a little evening walk, you know, it's really, really tickety when you put your hand on my boobies, I'm having a feed. So you know, we say to you don't really know, if you don't want to be taken off, you don't have to be tickled and daddy doesn't like being tickled. So it's just the same thing. So can we do something else with your hand? And quite quickly, she sort of accepted that, you know, to have a feed, but somewhere else? And I remember being really surprised that he did accept that so easily. Because I just Yeah, I think I'd got to the point where I thought, if I'm going to be breastfeeding a toddler, I need to just accept whatever comes with that. And you don't. You don't because it, you know, there has to be a relationship. So that was really helpful to kind of recognise that I needed to put myself first a little bit.

Emma Pickett  31:42

Yeah. And that's got you where you are today. I mean, you've been able to breastfeed for longer, I think because you were able to communicate that to her and, and put those boundaries in place. I mean, who knows? What would have happened if you've had, you did have lots of nipple twiddling towards the end of your pregnancy, you might might not be where you are today. Were you worried that when you give birth, you'd would still have a version with? I think it was that something that worries you? Or did you know that that wasn't necessarily going to happen? 

Lucy Ling  32:09

Yeah, I don't remember spending a lot of time worrying about it, I think I was worried it would never go away. Because it was it was really sort of damaging to the relationship. I was worried I wouldn't enjoy feeding her again. And then I would have to wean her and I didn't really have to do just after the birth. So I was glad I think a large part of it was that I didn't have a lot of milk. So actually, when I was born, I did have more milk than ever before. With Ivy, she had an undiagnosed tongue tie me didn't pick that for weeks. And my supply was really badly impacted by that. So when Aaron came along, and I actually you know, had kind of flowing milk like, wow, this is cool. That's what a letdown is. And oh, yeah, I'm like leaking a bit. And you know, I never had any, any depth. I kind of got to an okay, good enough supply with me. So. So I think that helps take away those feelings of aversion. Yeah, I think I just worried that I would never be the same again. I'd never enjoy it again. But luckily, I did. Yeah, so that was really nice. 

Emma Pickett  33:31

And tell me about what sleep was like with Ivy when Erin arrived. How did you organise everybody sleeps if, if Ivy was used to co sleeping did you all post sleep together? How did you arrange things?

Lucy Ling  33:43

So what we did when I first got back from the hospital, and we had wanted to have a home because I'd never been away from her at this point. But that wasn't me. I started having an abruption with Erin. So had to have an emergency C section. So I spent two nights hospital and then came home and was obviously very sore from the C section. So we thought the best thing to do would be for her to coast, in her normal place with my partner, that she stayed in the bed that she was used to sleeping in with my partner and I came into the spare room with Erin. I didn't know how I would manage co sleeping with a tiny newborn and a toddler on the other side of me. So we thought that that would work best but I think even the first night of doing that Ivy woke up at about one in the morning and she had been sleeping through the night. But she woke up at one in the morning came looking for me it was just absolutely inconsolable. So we had a couple of hours awake in the middle of that night and it was the next night or the one after that. And we just said no this is to destroy octave, everyone's awake. Let's try co sleeping with three girls in together. And that's what we did. So we've got like, a king size floor bed that's up against one wall in our bedroom. So she kind of went up against the wall and next to her earring newborn, everyone went on the other side of me. And yeah, that was okay. 

Emma Pickett  35:25

And it worked on it worked. And yeah, and how did I sleep then have wish you continuing to work at night then? Or did she go back to sleeping at night? And she was quite sad?

Lucy Ling  35:34

Yeah. Oh, she did. I forgotten this. But she did go back to feeding to sleep at night for a little while. But that was okay, because I had all this milk. So she was knocking her out within five minutes. So that was great. But I did start to feel like I was just, you know, delivering milk to tiny people after about three months. So yeah, I will tweet them I'm trying to remember, it all becomes a bit of a blur. I'm trying to remember exactly how we did it. I would affect them both to sleep, but not at the same time. So I think I would be ready to sleep. John would have everything this thing downstairs. And then I'd go in, maybe spend an hour or so on the sofa with Erin just cuddling and feeding, and then come up to bed with Erin. And then I would sleep through the night she never on like, Okay, that's a word. So I was very glad that sorry, only ever had to feed Erin through the night at a time, that would have pushed me over the limit? 

Emma Pickett  36:41

Well, who knows. I mean, you're you've got pretty impressive limits based on your you know, the things you've been through, you may have been absolutely able to cope. But let's not jinx that in this case. So a little bit about what it was like to have a sort of locked down toddler, and then not have Erin, with that lock down experience. So you talked about the nasty bug in your letter, and how that changed your work and how you could stay at home and you could carry on feeding and and you know, it sounds as though that enabled you to do a bit more nesting in those sort of, you know, around the sort of 12 month mark in that period of lockdown. What was it like were there and when you didn't have the pandemic? 

Lucy Ling  37:24

Yeah,  it was so different. And I mean, actually, you know, when we went through kind of the lockdown with IV, you were very fortunate in that in nobody that we knew got very poorly. And we had that wonderful, glorious summer. And my partner who had been working away in Richmond three nights a week, you know, and so we weren't seeing a lot of him all of a sudden was working from home. And so we kind of had this, the three of us have this sort of blissful little summer. And as you say, we kind of just nested and I started going to electric league meetings when I was three months old, but they all moved online. Third, go to the online meetings throughout. So I don't think I realised what I was missing really, until are in that same age. And actually, I remember Yeah, when she was around 11 months old, being a boob group meeting. And just seeing how interactive she was with other babies and you know, the opportunity to explore other babies. I'm friends with the mums from there now because Erin and her baby were kind of like scratching each other's faces. Which dinner was just unheard of. It was that age, we just, you know, we weren't seeing anyone never close enough to scratch the baby's face. And I actually remember having a huge amount of grief at what we hadn't had with IV around that time. Because I hadn't realised what we were missing, because it was my first baby. And actually, it was quite nice to not have the faff of getting out to swimming lessons, I thought. But then when we could socialise with Erin, you know, like, oh, goodness, yeah, we've missed so much. And I didn't know at the time what we were missing. 

Emma Pickett  39:27

Yeah.  You mentioned that your parents live abroad. Did that mean that they didn't really get to see Ivy throughout that period? 

Lucy Ling  39:35

Yeah, they live in Ireland. And so does my brother, his wife is Irish. So they all live close together in Ireland. So my mum and dad saw it when she was six months old. And then they didn't see her again until she was one. I mean, we would zoom or you know Whatsapp Video call kind of all the time because we didn't have a lot else to do. So they saw her a lot but yeah, that was hard. And it was hard not having not been able to have any family support. We went out for drinks together just the two of us, me and John The week after she turned one. And we were just like, This is strange. We went to a pub that six minutes from our house. Nothing, we managed an hour away. Just like this feels so weird. Now, we weren't used to leaving her with anyone else. I did go back to work when she was 11 months old, but for the first month, I mean, I was actually semi furloughed. So I used to work in the travel industry, which obviously was hugely impacted by COVID. So it's only actually working hours a week. And we kind of fit it around, like John's schedule. And all of my team that worked for me were were furloughed. And so it was very strange time. And then she was looked after by John's mum, from when she was wanting it. Yeah, from when she was one. So we just were so not used to having anyone else look after her. And it's really just the three of us. And it was so funny. I mean, ironic, I suppose. Because I'd spent ages, you know, kind of in discussions with work about what do I have to do about breastfeeding and travelling? And what will I do with my milk if I'm in a different country, and and then all of that was just, you know, we hadn't had to do it. Because I didn't leave the spare room there.

Emma Pickett  41:31

You within nipples visibility the entire time. So let's think about the future with Ivy. Now, you mentioned that after you wrote that beautiful letter, she then got ill was that that must have been quite soon after you wrote? 

Lucy Ling  41:48

Oh, yeah. Yeah, it was about a week, maybe a week after it's the 18th of March. So yeah, probably a week or week after. So I think she had a couple of feeds. And then she got a she got scarlet fever blesser and was just miserable for a while, and then your throat infection was miserable again. So go back to feeling every day. But yeah, you know, it was I was like, oh, oh, what was I doing? I will probably be here for another two years.

Emma Pickett  42:23

Did you have mixed feelings about that? And I mean, there was a, was there a moment of few that's not the end? Or was it? Oh, down it? I thought that was? What were you feeling in those moments?

Lucy Ling  42:33

Um, there was definitely a few that fear. I'm glad that's not the end. And now I'm going to try to enjoy every, you know, every little bit of feeding that we do, because it will be again soon. And you know, people say Oh, I never kind of realised that was the last week. And I can imagine that's how it will go. You know, it will be Oh, it was five days, or seven days, you know. And I've had a taste of that now. So I think I think it was helpful to kind of just Yeah, process all of my feelings from the whole journey. That that has actually been published in the La Leche League magazine. And so I gathered all my photos as well from the last five years and got John to send me all of his photos of his feeding. And that was really lovely. As I was like, Oh, yeah. Look at all of this. It's amazing. So yeah, there was kind of like relief. It's still going, but also when it when it ends, I've like, lost it. And I'm sure I'll be sad when it happens, but I'll feel like it's time. And I'm ready. And I've had time to get ready. Because when it nearly happened when I was pregnant, I was distraught. I was just like, No, she's not ready. I'm not ready. Yeah. And in COVID, you know, as I said, like, I'd heard of this thing called weaning. And I just assumed like six months you add in food, they just get this interested in milk. That's not how it went for us. 

Emma Pickett  44:16

So yeah, I'm guessing it's the literally that helps you to understand what is normal. And obviously, she has a big tradition of of natural breastfeeding and supporting natural term breastfeeding. So you realise quite quickly that the introduction of food doesn't make a blind bit of difference. And people can go on for a very, very long time many, many years beyond the introduction of Greek yoghurt and porridge and favourite things. So when you were before you were a parent before you're a mom, did you have any feelings around sort of natural term breastfeeding? What was your kind of culture of breastfeeding before you became a mum yourself?

Lucy Ling  44:52

Yeah, it's a good question. I remember a friend of a friend. I was feeding a two year old and me and my friend are like, Oh, that's weird. I just, I just didn't know anything about it, you know. And I thought breastfeeding was the thing that you were either, like, lucky enough to be able to do. Or it just didn't happen. And, you know, it was kind of like the look of the door type thing. And then when I got pregnant, like, my partner has really severe allergies. And I remember saying to the midwife, you know, is there anything I need to be aware of? Like, is there anything I can do to try and avoid on any of his allergies, the baby and she just said, breastfeed. She literally said one word. And I was like, Okay, that was that. So we're so lucky here, which is like an amazing, you know, kind of world. We did a hypno birthing course with a doula Tracy, who was wonderful. And then she offered a kind of separate breastfeeding course, which we did with one of the other couples from the course. And I think that that's probably what saved or one of the things that saved us when we did have issues when Ivy arrived, because I remember her really clearly saying, there's only two issues you can encounter when they're linked and one's supply and, you know, just get sorted, and you'll be pretty much okay, you know, when you're trying to establish breastfeeding, obviously, there's more things that can happen. So I remember keeping that in mind when we were being like, you know, it has to be one of these two, or both, you know, so I didn't know a lot about it apart from that. Friends had breastfed and I remember thinking, they're like, the lucky ones, they've obviously just kind of got lucky. So how will it go for me, and then when it arrived, I was so surprised by this, like, huge, overpowering instinct, or like, almost, to be able to beat her. That was more than just, you know, to try and help avoid her getting John's allergies, it was like, I have to feed this baby. I'd had an unplanned C section. So now I kind of felt a bit like my body hadn't done what I'd hoped it would do during birth. So it was almost like breastfeeding needed to sort of like it needed to work I needed to be able to veto. And, you know, at first I couldn't, or she was feeding nonstop, but not effectively as we were fitting these we worked out eventually. And I remember the night before we actually had the tongue tie dinos saying to my mum and John Well, if this is how breastfeeding is meant to be then, like if she says there's not a problem with the tongue tie tomorrow, then I'm giving up because if this is how, you know hard it's supposed to be I'm not going to do it. I'm done. And that was three weeks in. So when, when the person we saw who diagnosed the tongue tie said yeah, he's definitely definitely got a tongue tie. I was like, Oh, thank goodness. Okay, we've got a reason.

Emma Pickett  48:32

Yeah. And you were one of the lucky people who had that immediate change so some people who have the procedure done don't necessarily have that kind of magic wand feeling but it sounds like you did it sounds like you immediately felt a difference. 

Lucy Ling  48:44

I did she we didn't have the division done that day though. So she said because she is hungry. I'm not going to divide it today or I'm not going to recommend having it divided today. And because that might turn them off breastfeeding so she sent us home with a feeding plan and an expecting plan and we actually managed to get some donor milk from I don't know if I'm allowed to say 

Emma Pickett  49:08

no, go ahead. 

Lucy Ling  49:08

Herts milk bank.

Emma Pickett  49:10

Yes. No, I'm I'm I'm a trustee for the heart for Herts milk bank and the Human Milk Foundation. So very happy to hear and I should just say that right at the moment that there isn't a lot of community milk coming out of hearts milk bank, because they've just moved move premises and they're focusing on their their hospital provisions. So I'm very glad that you were able to get community melt when you needed it. That was that's brilliant to hear. Um, yeah. And hopefully the future is very much going to be more community melt from hearts once since they continue their expansion. Yeah, no, you're absolutely allowed to say shout it from the rooftops.

Lucy Ling  49:44

Amazing. Yeah. They were amazing. You know, they say, right, again, another part of the Yeah, another part of the team that saved us. They gave us the three litres of milk and we had had it in the freezer, I can still remember what the little bottles look like. And you know, we will defrost and topper up with that and with my milk that was expressing. And I remember, we had a question one day about like, the milk was looking funny when we defrosted it. So I found the number they'd given us. And at the time, I didn't realise who Dr. Natalie Shanker was. And she answered the phone. And I just had this lovely chat with this lovely lady. And as I learned more about breastfeeding world, I was like, Oh, goodness. She's like, breastfeeding royalty. So

Emma Pickett  50:34

she literally is now she's got an MBE. So that's, I think that pretty much makes somebody's world. Yeah. Natalie's a very, very special woman, for sure. I'm glad you got to talk to her. 

Lucy Ling  50:44

Yeah, they were wonderful. So yeah, so we did that for a week. And then she had the division and then and then yeah, when she latched on that time, I was like, ah, it doesn't hurt. Oh, God can do this now. So yeah.

Emma Pickett  50:58

Good. I'm so glad that was your experience. And then you definitely did do it. And you are still doing it right now. Yeah, till just a few moments ago. So in terms of Erin's feeding, I'm guessing you've have similar plans, just to see how that goes. And let her take the lead. And at the moment, night feeding feels okay. And obviously, you may feel differently about that in a few weeks or months time. What's your sort of feeling about her and feeding will go?

Lucy Ling  51:20

Yeah, so we did think that Erin was less attached to feeding until she was about one. And we were both I mean, my partner, we're like, not sure if we'll have the same experience for this one. And then once he got to one, I don't know, I guess, like kind of being a toddler. And then she got eczema and allergies and struggles with constipation. So she, at that point in kind of going breastfeeding crazy. So I don't know, I feel like it's hard to call with her, I'm not sure that we will get to five, partly because of her different character. And partly because I'm not sure I'll still be wanting to do it, then. But I don't know, I'm trying just not to kind of have any preconceptions about it. I do want, I would like to let her decide and need the way I feel like by the time she gets to that age, we'll have a slightly busier life. So at the moment, we kind of have the luxury of, you know, having this morning snuggle. We've decided to home educate, at least for the next kind of year or so. So it was nice to not have anywhere that we need to be in the mornings, which does help with the kind of long nights feeding and eczema. But we're sort of making it up as we go along. So I don't know how our mornings are lucky in a couple of years.

Emma Pickett  52:52

Sounds like a good plan, and you're going for an extended trip abroad, which is one of the benefits of breastfeeding, everyone's a bit more of a mobile, you go somewhere exciting, where you go where you go. 

Lucy Ling  53:02

We're going to southern Spain. So we're having some work done on our house that we need to move out for. So we're going to Yeah, south of Spain, southeast Spain in September,

Emma Pickett  53:14

actually South Spain, and we do we know if there's literally find them.

Lucy Ling  53:20

I find them if there is yeah, that would be lovely.

Emma Pickett  53:23

Yeah, I reckon you can start one you can couple of months, you can get one established, there isn't one. All the beauty of zoom is that you can always connect with people back in the UK as well. 

Lucy Ling  53:32

It's so true. I was gonna say actually, during COVID, I, I joined an LLL Edinburgh call, because I was really struggling with Ivy. Like, she was 20 months old at that point. And what I didn't realise is that she was about to have a huge language explosion. And she was just feeding all the time. And yeah, one of the leaders in Cambridge said or there is a toddler feeding zoom coming up with the Edinburgh group for just joining that and it's just wonderful. People from you know, like the other end of the country talk about boobs on a Saturday morning. Why not?

Emma Pickett  54:12

Yeah, I mean, that is one thing. That's definitely I've taken away from the pandemic. I mean, I'm now probably seeing at least three quarters all my clients on Zoom. I've got someone from South Africa tomorrow as someone from America today. It's, it's a different world, isn't it? And especially when you're talking about natural term feeding, you know, you might not have 10 people that live on your street, but you are going to be able to find 10 People who are available at a certain time through the internet. So that's that's really special. I'm glad you found your connections and your tribe. Thank you so much for sharing your story today. Lucy I'm really honoured to hear your letter and and very, very best of luck with the end of IVs journey. Let me know when that last feed is the minute you tell it she'll then have another for you. 24 hours later. Yeah, pretty Interested to know how that goes and how you feel when that does happen. And yeah, very much look forward to hearing about how things carry on with Erin as well. Thank you so much for being so beautifully articulate. And thank you for being emotional and sharing those emotions with us because I think that's, that's a real honour for all of us. Thank you.

Lucy Ling  55:19

Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

Emma Pickett  55:26

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.