Terri's story - night weaning and boundaries

Today, doula and peer supporter Terri Dell is sharing her breastfeeding story which ends with her night weaning her daughter Riley on attempt number 3. It’s a story that covers some early challenges but ends with a demonstration of how putting some boundaries in place, and getting to grips with nursing manners, can help a breastfeeding journey to continue. As Terri describes, she ‘fell back in love with breastfeeding’ once she started to look after her own needs in the nursing relationship.

Terri is on instagram as @terridell

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Emma Pickett  00:47

Thank you very much for joining me today. I'm very happy today to be talking to Terri. So Terri Dell is a doula. She's an ABM Peer Supporter. She's just started training as an ABM breastfeeding counsellor so we can ask her a bit more about that. She's also currently breastfeeding, which is the first time I mean when I say currently breastfeeding, I mean literally right now breastfeeding while I'm talking to her, breastfeeding her two and a half year old daughter Riley. So you might hear some Riley sound effects. Hi, Riley, Mommy's gonna talk to me on the podcast. How are you doing today? She's swapping sides business to be done. Okay, so I can see Terri, you obviously can't, but you're gonna be able to hear her talk about her experiences of breastfeeding Riley. She's been through a long journey. And she's still there at two and a half years. We're going to talk about night weaning, and how you can night when even when you come very much from a gentle parenting perspective. And breastfeeding is still really important to you. And we'll talk a little bit about putting boundaries in place, looking after yourself as you continue breastfeeding beyond that second year. So thank you very much for joining me today. Terri, is there anything I didn't mention in the introduction that you want to make sure we highlight right now?

Terri Dell  01:54

So I should say that I am a FAB peer supporter. So I'm a Familes and Babies Peer Supporter. So which means that my breastfeeding counsellor training with ABM is a little bit more complicated because I have to redo my personal training with them for Okay, and then start the counselling training. But But yeah, currently I peer support for families and babies toolset. But but soon when I do my counsellor training, I will become ABM as well. 

Emma Pickett  02:15

Yes, sorry. Sorry about that repeating business. I know it's a bit annoying when organisations ask you to repeat bits of your training is just so we can make sure everyone's on the same baseline. But I'm sure because you've done the FAB training, you will whizzed through without any problems at all and get straight on to the counsellor training. So you've been supporting breastfeeding families since you started your own journey. So two years and a bit?

Terri Dell  02:37

Yes. So I have I did my peer support training and finished that January 2023, I launched a breastfeeding support group in the cafe that I also run on the top floor that we hold every Monday. But pre that I think you can imagine the kind of nature of peer sporting starts before you get signed off. Because everyone's always like, Oh, you breastfeed so you can text outside, they text me and ask me questions to say, Can you Can I want this? And how do I do this? So I'm used to used to helping out lots of families. 

Emma Pickett  03:09

Cool. So tell us a bit more about FAB before we talk a bit more about your experiences. So I see FAB everywhere. It sounds like it's a really active organisation. So it stands for Families and Babies. Is that right? 

Terri Dell  03:21

Yeah, Families and Babies Dorset, but they are Greater Manchester, Wakefield, Bolton, that kind of stuff. And we just became like a bolt on the Dorset section. A very similar to BFN, ABM, La Leche League. The focus is on Infant Feeding support and what that looks like. So a group will be mums coming along. Well, actually, anyone coming along, we'd like families, older children. So you can bring a sibling if you're nursing, younger one, and talk about everything in anything. So one week we'll be talking about kind of back to basics with positioning and attachment and how that looks. And then another week we'll be talking about sleep and what normal isn't sleep looks like and what to expect. We invite pregnant families. So if you wanted to come along to a group where you have your babies, you see what that looks like. So I think when I have my little one, I went along to the lab and it was that was it you know, when you once you're in, you're in and it kind of rolled like that. I run a group on the cusp between ABM support on one side of things in Salisbury in Wiltshire, and then families and babies in Dorset. So I get really get the best of both worlds really

Emma Pickett  04:23

cool. And why did you want to carry on to train to be a breastfeeding counsellor?

Terri Dell  04:27

Because I am a bit obsessed. I am that person like. So again, very luckily, I run the cafe, which we hold the roots in. So I'm able to kind of capture a lot of mums. I'll see somebody breastfeeding in the week and be like, Oh, do you know we've run a support group every Monday. And basically from that point on you'll see people would ask me things people will come in separately. My journey the beginning was was tricky. And I think coming from a world of being in control of everything my life was like I control everything. I've been a boss for a very long time. That early postpartum part where you have absolutely zero control and you just got to ride with it was a big struggle. So I did the pistol training and like I hoped that I could impact one month and not feel as horrendous as I did, then potentially being able to take that further and further and further through the counselling through the helping on the Breastfeedng Helpline would be amazing. And then let's do that ever ending debate about whether that then one day becomes ibclc world but I think that's the carpet wish you know, it's a long way away.

Emma Pickett  05:31

Yeah, you don't have to decide that now. It's it's step by step and I know exactly what you mean about how you get obsessed I think once you're on that journey, it's so hard to stop learning and reading and continuing continuing because it's it's it's just incredible to change people's lives. It's a very powerful job and not in a sort of dodgy succession scary way. But it's you know, you are you have a huge impact on people. And that's, that is addictive. And knowing what a difference you can make to people is really special. And when you say you run a cafe, you mean your little cafe cafe, like, you know, cakes and tea and coffee cafe, not a baby cafe or a breastfeeding cafe. You're literally no cafe, a cafe cafe.

Terri Dell  06:10

Yeah, with a lot of food are the predominant. So my background is what is the I used to be a publican before I went into a world when I was pregnant, actually. And yes, there's big, big emphasis on food, coffee, cakes, etc. And yeah, so throughout the week, I'll see a lot of families come in gaffers deck is a really good way of saying she said she's addicted to the oxytocin of helping people. And I think that there is definitely unless you're treated every time somebody comes back. My favourite thing is when somebody who has come to group in the early days then says, Oh, I think I'm going to try to be a peer supporter. And yes, like, yes, that is exactly like where we want to be. I love seeing that. It makes me so happy.

Emma Pickett  06:47

Yeah, that's lovely. That is the ultimate ripple effect, isn't it? Yeah. So Pam Lacey, who was the chair of the Association of breastfeeding mothers for many years. And the Pamela Lacey award is named named after her. Yeah, she was somebody who influenced a lot of people to do training. And I'm an ibclc, because of her because she came up to me and said, Oh, by the way, you know, rules are changing on how someone can apply to be an ibclc. I think you need to do it this year, and I never would have done it unless she'd said that I should go ahead and do it. So yeah, making that impact is really special. So you talked about having a difficult start yourself. Let's talk a little bit more about that before we focus on your toddler experiences. Before you had Riley. What did you know about breastfeeding? Were you in a breastfeeding family? Did you have any family members that breastfed? What were you thinking about breastfeeding while you're pregnant? 

Terri Dell  07:33

Er the only person I think I really had at the time that was breastfeeding was my sister in law. she breastfed my elders neat. Nice, hot, quite tricky time the beginning but it was weird locked down. Everything's a bit strange. So we didn't really get to see as much of her as it might have liked. And then she had my seconds neath four months or so before I had Riley. And then my other sister north and my other brother was pregnant nine weeks after me. We have our babies and she was a she's very holistic in her style of like, birth parenting, that kind of stuff. So she given me a book about breastfeeding. And I always always kind of knew I wanted to breastfeed not I wasn't the person that I am. Now I wasn't I went and had some of those pre pre ready for me bottles is it just in case, I knew I wanted to press these. I did a course from member now when I was whilst I was pregnant. I did like it was two Saturdays in a row a couple of hours each morning. And actually, I'm so glad that I did do that course in the ends, because as part of that course, it talks about and expressing clustering for you given birth, and I was leaking for 15 weeks. I remember sitting on the sofa cuddling into my other half and looking down and being like, what is that? And saying to my midwife, but my next point be like, I'm the king. What is that? And she was like, it's probably breastmilk. And I was like, Okay, what do I do? And then I did this course and it said to collect colostrum and I'm so so glad it is because I used every single syringe with 30 mils of colostrum. I can express free going in when my baby was born. So that was kind of that was about it. Education wise. I was fairly flexi. And then after I was not.

Emma Pickett  09:09

Yes, I was flexi then I gave birth and the baby was here. And I was no longer flexi. Yeah, so we're all those that rush of hormones and that burning desire to make this work and to make it happen. Tell me a bit more about your birth and those early hours. 

Terri Dell  09:21

So that that is exactly why I had to breastfeed without going into long story of my birth. I was induced, but I had said I didn't want to be induced, because there was no one on the ward who knew how to use the ultrasound machine. So I, their response was we have to introduce you and I said, What's the risk if I don't?

Emma Pickett  09:39

What? Sorry, what machine? I'm very ignorant about the machine you just mentioned, what machine is that you're talking about? 

Terri Dell  09:44

So I was strapped with something called a continuous monitoring. She says the CTG monitors heart rates, the expectation is that heart foetal heart rate is up to a certain level because the heart rate is quite high and my little one was fine for like eight or nine minutes of the monitoring and then it would just limit to 60 for like 10 seconds and then go back up. And because they didn't have anybody who could ultrasound me, they couldn't tell me that everything was okay.

Emma Pickett  10:07

So ultrasound machine. I didn't hear what you said, okay,

Terri Dell  10:10

okay already. So yeah, I had to be induced which then, you know, retinas flex became an emergency section about 25 hours later and honestly on the operating theatre that I started beating myself up about how I felt, oh my god. Sebastian Lieber and the amazing registrar, who did my C section. Honestly, I don't think I've ever seen any to Scarlett, my she is my hero, was leaning over the big arch. She's heard me say I have to breastfeed because I failed to birth that property and explains that she was stuck, shoulder presentation, that kind of stuff. But from literally from that point, I was like, I have to breastfeed like, there's no, there's no, there's no question about it. This is this has to be my thing. And then, yeah, kind of stupid, super tricky. first few weeks, and then that became super tricky for seven weeks. And then once you once you kind of got the flag and things like that, it was really rich.

Emma Pickett  11:01

Yeah. So it's interesting that as you said, even before Riley was here, you had that desire to sort of fix what happened with your birth? I mean, how do you feel looking back on that? Now, if you could talk to Terry of two and a half years ago, who's on the in the operating theatre? What would you want to say to her about that birth experience?

Terri Dell  11:19

Actually, I just recently finished listening to Amy Brown's wife breastfeeding tour and reached matter. And a lot of that is kind of reconciling with what happened, you know, the past. And I think there is a level of, I don't want to pass that blame on to anybody else. Because maybe if I didn't want a bit more education, free having a baby, maybe if I'd have done as much learning as I have done, since I might have been able to advocate for myself better like etc, etc. Maybe if I'd had to do that, at the time, I'd have known my options a bit more. But there is a still a level of anger, I guess that the system allowed my situation to roll out as it was. And my baby would have done this, I have gone through the C section yet. But that's what I had to keep reminding myself of like, it's not a failure, it's not failed, but I still hurt my baby, still have major abdominal surgery. And very lucky, I do feel really lucky that I have been able to breastfeed since because we have a lot of education and research now that says, six months of exclusive breastfeeding, even for a C section baby puts their gut biome back into the same place that it was if they have been vaginally birth, and so I'm like, well, at least I've got that. That's one thing that at least I've reaped the rewards in that sense.

Emma Pickett  12:27

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way to look at it. Yeah. Um, another shout out for Amy Browns book on breastfeeding grief and trauma. That's such a valuable book. And it's such an important conversation. I'm glad that that book helped you. I think everyone should read that anyone who's involved in the world of breastfeeding support. So you mentioned you had a tough few weeks, I'm not gonna ask you to recount every single detail, because it's not necessarily comfortable for you. But it does sound like a lot of stuff was going on for you. What was some of the sort of most difficult moments in those first couple of months.

Terri Dell  12:58

So tongue tie, the first sort of five days, I tried to direction earth and every time it was just agony, and and by the time I got to day five, I did have like, half my nipple was just gone. It's just completely away. Again, I'm so so thankful that I did have an espresso machine before I went into hospital because she had not lost any weight by day, as far as she does. She gains weight. And that is purely I think, from my perspective, from getting all that clustering because there was I couldn't direct NASA as much as I would have liked to. Certainly she had that back up. Obviously, kind of, I guess the record story is I asked for lots of checks around Santai. No, no, she's fine. And I'm like, I'm not fine. So I moved to exclusive pumping on day five, day six, then I just didn't want to exclusively pump I thought I'd be okay. And after a couple of days, I was like, No, I can't do this. So we had ibclc coming around. And honestly, without even touching her just watching her cry. She's like, well, she's got a tonne to say, especially if you're pumped from day five till we're about two and a half weeks until I get an appointment to have the time to act on it. But I didn't know how much milk you're supposed to remove. I just know we're in. So at one point I was removing about 45 ounces a day. 

Emma Pickett  14:03

Whoa, okay. Okay, so anybody who's listening to this, that doesn't know what's a normal output? I mean, 19 to 30 ounces is sort of the range at six weeks, let's say. So if you're producing 45 ounces, and you're not even got to six weeks yet, that's a good double amount, the amount that we would expect someone to be producing. At this point. Gosh, that's intense. How much were you pumping to get 4745 ounces out? 

Terri Dell  14:29

So again, I guess, didn't quite know. I think because there wasn't I was panicked about making sure that I got to minimum six months, my goal but also six weeks, and all that chat about making sure your supply is robust enough, I was gonna get six weeks I was like, Well, I have to make sure I get loads of milk cow. So tell pumping almost every session. So I was pumping every three hours max that usually two and a half. But I would tell them every time so my pumping sessions was taking an hour at a time because I would have 20 minutes to have a break for 10 minutes and for another 10 minutes a robber emanates, like, yeah, it was It was wild. I tried to direct blouch A couple of times between the beginning pumping and the transfer being snapped. I think it's just so sore that I couldn't. So I just kept repeating milk and kept removing milk and thinking, Oh, it's fine. I honestly my fridge looked like a dairy. Like there was so much milk in my fridge. And then sometimes net. And when I talk to other moms about this, I try and make them clear that this might not be their experience, because every experience is different. But I honestly, it was immediate, the impact was immediate. I latched on apples to apples comparison it. And aside from the fact that as you can imagine, I had a vicious oversupply. By that time. She fed like a dream. And it was absolutely fine. We went straight to direct nursing. It was tricky in that I had to then manage an oversupply I had to hand Express or pump. 

Emma Pickett  15:49

I was gonna say Terri was the lactation consultants supporting you? And you said, oh, yeah, pump 45 hours a day, and you're going back to direct feeding, I'd be like, Well, okay, this is going to be a military operation here to make sure you don't get mastitis. I didn't have any task manager, you say you were still doing some expressing. You didn't have support,

Terri Dell  16:08

I didn't have any support going back in. So I saw the ibclc once who confirm that time to buy and confirms that it was likely that Riley would need to see an osteopath because of the way that Herbert had been. Absolutely right. That was again, one of those things that I'm so glad that somebody told me that early on, because she was so bent out of shape. And I obviously didn't know she would only lie on one side, if you would ever let me put her down. She writes certain positions. And yeah, the the ethnos state was made a huge difference. But yeah, from that point on, I didn't see anybody else. And I had the translator at the hospital, and the midwife who slept It was absolutely lovely. She was so great. And you know, she let me stay in the room and show me a couple of positions and stuff. But that was it. There was no support after I didn't speak to another ibclc again, until we ate but that was a whole different problem. But yeah, I just had to manage it. I would say Luckily, I had peer supporters who were able to say, Try this. Try that. But nothing beyond that kind of experience. Like yeah, just had to hope for the best and I would pump a little bit or had expressed what's the kind of wind down a bit but yeah, it was it took a bit of time to get that managed. 

Emma Pickett  17:14

Yeah. And I was surprised also, Riley wasn't washed across the other side of the room because you were you're you must have had a pretty forceful flow. And she's gulping away desperately heck hanging on for a few fat cells to before she gets completely full. I mean, how, how was she coping with with flow? Did you I'm guessing you had a pretty forceful that down as well as overproduction? How did she cope?

Terri Dell  17:35

the main thing that that came out in was auditing reflux, it does come out a lot that went in came straight like out again, to begin with, in order to not to get mastitis and just be horribly uncomfortable, I was having to keep up quite a bit of pumping. So I think I was able to find the balance fairly well at pumping just enough beforehand, but not too much to tell my brother to keep making. But laid back nursing I would say was the big thing that enabled us to not be like you said to not surround her with a fire hose every time is that I would try and get myself as far back as possible before I did last year and kind of latch her down my body. And at the time. That felt like the right thing just to ask, but actually, obviously now having done my training, I'm just like, so far I can talk about like button athletes or anyone I will say this is best. 

Emma Pickett  18:21

Yeah, no, it is mega, not even for like overactive letdown situations. It should be the default, I think for everybody who's starting off unless there's a reason why it doesn't work for them. So it sounds like you instinctively had a really good, but you obviously had that peer support team around you. But you also instinctively knew what you needed to do to protect your supply and take that, you know, we don't normally suggest pumping before a feed. That's not normally a great plan. But you obviously were able to balance that to make sure your supply was regulated. So it's gonna sound very patronising, but congratulations for doing that well done going through that stage. I'm also really glad that the tongue tie made such a difference when you had the division down because that is something you deserved after that really difficult start. So you had in your mind, I'm going to get to six months, I'm absolutely going to do this. Did you have at that stage of goal for long term breastfeeding or natural term breastfeeding? What were you thinking at this point?

Terri Dell  19:11

So six months sounded like a good plan to me. We then had quite another big bump in the road. She was a giant crater in the road around seventh week. I introduced the dummy Wow, that was just the worst decision I've ever made. She rocked the she read bounce, maybe like four or five feet today. At about seven weeks. It was a good day, some days. Not even that. And I just didn't put two two together and I just started awful whole didn't have an IV. So stay around have a second chance. I can't just it was five weeks it just awfulness and during that time it was. I honestly will just breastfeed for another day and another day and like if I could just get through tomorrow, if I can just get through the next day. It stopped being about that long term goal for a while. And then five weeks after I didn't use that dummy. So we Stevan roughly about he said about five months later, I was just so stressed. And I was like, I'm just going to take it away one day and see what happens. And that day she took selfies, and we just never ever went back. The dummy pretty quickly went in the bin. As you can imagine, last year, I think I left capture is a cheating toy, I put it up, put it in the fridge this used to and weeks and weeks later. So from that point on once we were back to write nursing, more normally, quote, unquote, and certainly having lots more fees, I felt from that point on, I wanted to go for as long as I could. And by that point I knew about the Hoos guidelines two years and beyond. So I was like, right, let's, let's see, let's take some tentative steps towards two years and see. And now, you know, far beyond that, and she's so obsessed...

Emma Pickett  20:46

I've just seen her very politely request the second side. So she's, you've managed to get some good manners, and then we'll talk a bit more about that a minute. Let's just come back to that dummy conversation, because I'm sure there are some people listening to this who are thinking, Well, hang on, what did she What did she just say about dummy? What what? It stopped her child breastfeeding? I mean, you know, you were in a place where you had a really good milk supply. And suddenly your baby's only feeding four or five times in 24 hours. You mentioned that you hadn't sort of joined up the dots. So what do you think was happening her what her sucky needs were just being met at the dummy. And she wasn't queuing for feeds what was going on?

Terri Dell  21:18

So I think at the time that I took with me away and and told people that they were like, Oh, you weren't reading their hunger cues, like obviously, you weren't catching the hunger cues. So that signs early enough? And I'm like, honestly, I was offering like this three times a day because obviously I was so desperate for how to feed and it just nothing works. So it wasn't about hunger cues because I would just offer and offer and offer. I've since listened to the Womanly Art of  Breastfeeding by La Leche League and there was a whole big conversation there about CCK?

Emma Pickett  21:47

Cholecystokinin the hormone Cholecystokinin. Yeah. 

Terri Dell  21:50

And how sucking and how that is affected by stocking of fullness. And I think part of that feels a bit more right in that yeah, like you said she just was getting her stocking needs and that actually ibclc you snitch was back in touch. Like right in the middle of things said, I'll just be careful with dummy use because it can also create swallowing does the saliva instead of milk, but they're kind of tricked into thinking I thought there was lots of stuff. I just, the dummy had stopped her from crying she was I don't even want to turn colicky baby because she just cried, you know, she was crying baby. She had a hard birth, did rocky start with breastfeeding? She was a newborn who was like, Oh, my God, this world is scary. And I just want to be with my mom all the time. But I was one of those parents at the time who told I was just put it down, you know, she's fine. And I did want to lean into my instincts as much as I should have back then. And the dummies stopped her from crying for a minute. And then, and then we went the opposite end of spectrum. So yeah, I think I'm always whenever mum comes to group and asked about something. So I'm always like, I have a really biassed opinion on this. So I'm not as willing to give you my opinion on this because I have a very personal experience of this. I know lots and lots and lots of parents who've given dummies and had absolutely no problems with their breastfeeding journey. But from my perspective, I'm 100 % certain it was the thing that nearly buckled us both.

Emma Pickett  23:04

Yeah. I mean, it's really, obviously it's a good practice to declare when you have a bias because that's what good professional people do. But also, I think it's valuable for people to hear that perspective. Because actually, we don't hear that very often. Actually, I think we'd sort of you know, people mumble and say, oh, yeah, there's a bit of evidence that early dummy use is connected to shorter duration of breastfeeding. We don't necessarily know why that's the case. But there is that relationship, and you'll hear people sort of make comments about, well, possibly, you're reinforcing different sucking patterns. And the tongue isn't extended over the gum ridge. And the tongue is not doing what it should be doing during breastfeeding. But it's a bit patchy, what we'd get told about dummies, we also hear stuff about oh, you know, dummy uses connected to reduce risk of SIDS. But actually, that's probably because children who are using dummies aren't necessarily breastfeeding as frequently or breastfeeding through the night. So it's quite complicated. So it's quite nice to have just one perspective that says, This is me. And I'm really confident that dummies weren't good for me, it doesn't mean that it's not going to be your that's gonna be your situation. But I think it is helpful for people to know what the impact can be. It's not benign, even though many of our cultures think it is. It's meeting a child's need. And ideally, that need should be met in different ways. And could it be something to do with the tongue tie? Possibly, I mean, who knows there's a, there's a, you could have been that you had something going on with the tongue tie around the same sort of timeframe that that you were dealing with the dummy is difficult to say for sure. But you came up the other side of it, which is the good news. 

Emma Pickett  24:37

A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book published by Pinter Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE10, Makes Milk Pickett Emma 10. Thanks. 

Emma Pickett  25:23

So you're back to breastfeeding regularly. Everything's going well, with weight gain, you're introducing solids. She's getting to one and then at some point you decided these nights aren't working for me anymore. And you decided tonight when? Tell me a bit more about where you were just prior to making that decision? What did a typical night look like for you and Riley at that point?

Terri Dell  25:44

So we had started cosleeping very, very early again, one of those ridiculous things where I was like, when whilst I was pregnant, I was like, we're gonna go against the grain and we're gonna put in our own room with a cart from like, six weeks, it's because I think we all get better sleep. Lol. Like, I think two weeks later, she maybe not even that long. I think Arthur, I'd been to my first five group Facebook group and had talks about the fact she never sleeps, and everyone was like, Where is she sleeping. And I'm like, well, we try and put her in this bassinet thing. And Ella wise, we're here to talk with you, we pretty quickly went into sleeping. And I guess like many families had manageable nights and very unmanageable nights, we kind of never had the progression at six months, we got hit with a wake up every 45 minutes. And that's pretty intense. But kind of very much sleep is not linear. And some nights would be great if a nice wouldn't be so great, but rolled with it. And then I went back to work fairly early for went back to work at four and a half months. But very, very slowly went back to work. I went back to work for like two days and then three days and then four days and very uncertainly work four days. So very slow reintroduction. So the nights of really bad sleep when she was much younger, felt more manageable, because I knew that I had another day coming. And I got really good familial support, my mom is great. She has made it one all the time by just around the corner. So I've got great support. So it's kind of okay to be a bit more exhausted. But then once I was back four days a week, and just everything just started to become the nights where it had been sort of four or five week cuts when she was under one. I'm like she still needs to be nutritionally complete diet. So I'm never going to take that away, definitely under one and then over one, actually over one she, she turned into a feeding monster, like it was just insane how much she would ask for milk all day long. But it definitely felt hugely developmental. She went from eating solids fairly well to being relatively uninterested. Still, to a degree, not as interested now. But nowhere near as bad as like that 14 month mark. Actually, we talk to moms a lot about that 14 month mark, where they're like, whoa, wait, why is my child to suddenly become a newborn again? And it's like, yep. And then everything I knew, and I've read and obviously follow amazing accounts on Instagram that talked about feeding and they're kind of like try wait to wait three months, because we have a better understanding. Riley has had a really good language understanding from a very young age, she was signing to her milk from about nine or 10, signings with different things, and then quickly that became talking. So 18 months, I was very confident she would be able to understand me kind of understand the language around it. But I wasn't confident that emotionally she was ready. So even though I was hugely ready, and just I just couldn't keep up with the Knights as they were, I didn't think she was emotionally ready. So I think I waited until she was about when to one month, try the first time, thrice. And it was still clear that she wasn't she wasn't ready. She wasn't emotionally there. It was too for her. And actually, I was getting even less sleep than just than just moving back off to sleep.

Emma Pickett  28:50

Can I just ask you a little bit more about that, that 21 months attempt, I would just say working in a cafe is the kind of job you can't do when you're exhausted. It's such a hard work job physically. You've got to have your brain switched on to do all kinds of you know, stock and management and money and finances and you got to be on your feet all day. So hats off to anybody who works in the hospitality and catering and food preparation while they're absolutely exhausted. So I don't think anyone would blame you for wanting to have a bit more sleep to be able to work. You said that she wasn't emotionally ready at 21 months. Tell me a bit about what approach did you try at that point? And what were the signs for you that she wasn't ready?

Terri Dell  29:27

Oh, thank you very much is your night reading podcast of course. Before I tried the first time, I think where it went wrong because I tried twice before the third time that was actually successful the first few times I think where I went wrong was not being clear about it enough during the daytime I wasn't clear enough about what we were going to expect that those coming evenings are a bit like Imani is gonna say no milk overnight, but I wasn't we didn't reiterate those conversations. We didn't have those enough. And yeah, I hadn't really put in place. What else would it would look like? but also in the daytime she was still asking a lot and I hadn't put that many boundaries in in the daytime yet, so she wasn't used to boundaries that much. That was a big thing for us. But or then like reading that was stressful happened. I had put in some, as she mommy's babies need a break right now or, you know, we're just gonna go and do this before we do that. And I hadn't done much of that before this time. So I think I literally tried one night that night and after, like, there's also a part of me that thinks because of breastfeeding, which I is my Wonder tool. You you will talk about your swiss army knife. It definitely is my swiss army knife. You spoke about before about people not seen meltdowns. Not I haven't really heard her cry as much as she was crying at that point since she was a newborn. And I'm just like, no, like, I can't like the responsive parent immediately attached parent the you know, the natural to her breastfeeding parent wants to be like, Okay, do you know what? Forget it, we'll just we'll just do because you're not ready for this? Because it was just, it probably wasn't more than about seven minutes. But seven minutes when you're when you're not used to that at all, is seven minutes too long.

Emma Pickett  31:02

So you tried just literally I'm not milk is not available? Is that what you attempted? So you just basically said, Tonight, Riley, no milk, but you as you said you didn't necessarily do a lot of talking around it. And then I don't mean to make you relive this horrible experience. But just to kind of break it down a bit more. And then when she woke up, you said, boobies, not here, no milk, just cuddles. And she was like, What did did you have any plans for what you're gonna do instead? Or did you try and shorten feeds? Or did you just attempt to just do night winning in one go? 

Terri Dell  31:34

I think I knew in the subconscious part of my brain that it wasn't right to drive a bus because I didn't wear a non breastfeeding bed top. The time that was successful, and I knew that it was going to be okay, I put a proper t shirt on. But I was still took his advice in my buttoned down nursing pyjamas. So I think part of me subconsciously was like, No, you're not ready for this either. You know, your hormones aren't ready for this either. So I think that's partly that knew that. But yeah, I took water to bed with us and said, as I was putting him to bed, because asleep I was like probably this is the last time we're going to have milk until the morning until the sun comes up. Let me just need a break and they're tired. But there's water behind cider. And we're gonna have a good cuddles. And she woke and I offered water. And she looked at me like what are you talking about? He's like, get to your boob out. And then when I was kind of like, no good remember I said, then that's when the crying started. And yeah, I just think I think your instinct would be I think I probably knew that that wasn't going to happen because otherwise I would have gone in the same way that the final time. 

Emma Pickett  32:37

So seven minutes you were feeding? Did you try again later that night? Or you just thought you just abandon it? It's there's literally just that one go? Okay,

Terri Dell  32:44

I'm like, I'm going to work tomorrow. I'm not trying this anymore!

Emma Pickett  32:48

okay, so that was attempt number one. And then tell us about attempt number two, which also didn't hold what happened with attempt number two, did you do anything differently at that point?

Terri Dell  32:56

So the only thing I did differently was involve some of the others I think between number one and number two, she had an overnight with my mum. I went in because if anybody told me this, I'd be like, Yeah, do it be you know, be the best month that you want you want to be at the time I remember thinking am I weird for not having wanted to be apart from my child overnight. That's when one month it was 22. I guess by the time that happens. And even we I was out for dinner with my other half. And we were partying by my mom's house in the cab on the way to come home. And I said to him, we could just go into monsters day her and he was like, No, like you need to do it. But actually, no, like, I wasn't ready. She wasn't ready. And by waiting, she woke up once for my mom overnight and slept with Mama milk. And once it my mom said to her, Oh, you know, Mommy's not here, but she'll be back in the morning to get the milk and then my bachelor this morning. So I think I that kind of Instagram made me like, okay, maybe maybe she is more ready than I think maybe we're going to be okay. And I remember going to the like to the group on a Monday and saying, guys, like I think we're gonna try again, like it's gonna be great to talk to her more about it. But basically follow the same principles where I think I did talk to her about it for a whole day. This time. We like across the day. I mentioned it a couple more times and said, Is there anything else that you want me to bring upstairs with me? Like, I mean, if you bring up an honour if he wanted or money could bring, I think like many breastfeeding children, she's never really got attached to a cuddly toy or a blanket or anything, because why would you need to? So that I did say them could bring money into their pockets. And she's like, why would I do that? And similar situation. I don't think I even managed to hold out for seven minutes this time. I think I'm maxed out at like five and was just like, this is just not worth it. And overthinking to know what we can just get to. I can just write this tool too. Because not every single night is as horrendous as all the other nights some nights it's to wake up some milk. The trouble is the nights that were eight way cups of milk. Were the ones where I'm like, I'm gonna pull my hair up but I hair out. I just thought I'm gonna get to I'm gonna get to two and then and then we will see what happens. And you know what, I'm actually really glad that I did. I I think it was, it was the right decisions, right? 

Emma Pickett  35:01

Yeah. What was what, in what way just in terms of her being emotionally ready, or what was different for you that third time?

Terri Dell  35:07

So between those two times, I was starting to feel a bit. I don't want to say touched out, because I don't I don't think that was the right time. But there was certain things that were happening when she was busy during the day, if it were frustrating me a little bit. And it felt still, like there was a lot of beauty happening during the day. And sometimes I didn't want that to be the case. So I started to put in a few more boundaries during the day, those boundaries in terms of how much and how often I wanted to ask, but also about the manners during nursing, because we've gotten to a stage where they don't even know where it comes from, or why it allows it to roll on so long. But we're the pitching and the grabbing and the squeezing. And trying to put a finger in her mouth at the same time as nursing or generally stuff that was making me really like who I really don't like this. And I'd love that to roll on. But then suddenly, I'm like, hang on this is this has to be both of us, this relationship has to work for both of us. And if we're going to make this lasts a long time, we have to work together on that. 

Emma Pickett  36:00

Yep, let's embroider that on a pillow right. Now. Let's paint that on a sign and go and stand somewhere, when and where we're standing outside the Houses of Parliament, because what you just said is absolutely the crux of this whole thing. If anyone is breastfeeding, for any length of time, it's got to be about both of you, hasn't it? Otherwise, what are we doing, we're just sacrificing ourselves on some altar and sending all sorts of weird messages to our children about how we matter and how our bodies matter. So it sounds as though by working on the manners stuff, she started to realise that you were here as well, it wasn't just a pair of boobs, you're behind the boobs, and you've got feelings and you've got needs and, and you and she was joining the dots in a way that she probably wouldn't have been able to do when she was younger. So somebody's listening to this, who's having a rough time with nursing manners is really struggling with someone pinching and pulling and grabbing. How did you address nursing manners problems?

Terri Dell  36:52

This is difficult, I guess there's some people listening will be have will have children who are distraught when you say stop or know, pretty quickly when I said, Babe, if you're going to carry on pinch me, I'm going to say no more belt, I'm often will go and do something else until you're ready to not pinch me, the kind of fear of milk was immediately enough to make her okay. And we quite quickly got to a stage where I was sitting on my lap to latch her. And I'd say, where do you need to be and she goes, I put them straight behind her back. And I'd say they are like the dentist and should tip her chin up and go. That should be coming in, into goo. So that we went back to basics with last but they didn't there was also a time when that piece was starting to rub and things were just start to get uncomfortable. And I'm like, right, we're going back to basics. And we're going to do this together. Because then we're in this together. And so she would hands behind her back and bring her chin in

Emma Pickett  37:45

Ah like the dentist or like the dentist took your chin back big are you also preparing her for going to the dentist, which is really handy. And the hands behind her back. I mean, that's awesome. I can just don't make you sound like you're the kind of Captain from the sound of music or something blowing your whistle. But in a lovely way obviously really worked. So she she and your the very no nonsense way that you just said, Babe, if you do not stop doing that we're not doing milk anymore. It wasn't pleading, it wasn't, please stop doing that it wasn't angry. It wasn't frustrated, it was just, you were owning that when you and she absolutely sensed that you and meaning what you were saying and you were owning that and that confidence to because you've given yourself permission to do that, that confidence rubbed off on her and it sounded like it very quickly, she realised that that was what needed to change. So well done for making that change so quickly. So really, within days that the nursing manners was no longer an issue. 

Terri Dell  38:36

The only thing I think that took a little bit longer was the we're not out it's just there's not an all you can eat buffet, you're not just going to come in much every minute of every day, because it was time to get to the point where my name turns from milk turns from milk with the hand sign for milk rather than mama or anything else. So that I think took probably more like a week or so of helping us understand that I can offer comfort in other ways we can play another game, we can have a cuddle, we can go and have a snack if you want, we can have some water, but Mommy's not always going to be able to give you now can I think a lot of reiteration around money movies attires. Around the same time as talking about nursing manners and kind of putting in some boundaries of how often she was nursing, we also started to talk about her body and consent. And you know, if I said to her now what does no mean that if she goes No means no. And I say what's that called she goes is called consent. Blessed by Britain that is instilling that into her for her own body. I was then able to talk about that. But my body too. So if she would come up and grab my boo or you know, try and pull my takedown I'd say maybe. And if she did it again, if she would do it again, I'd say remember Bobby No means no, that's cool consent. And that's also true for mom's body. That did take a little bit longer of her being like hang on, I just want to hang out whenever I want to have milk. But again, she got there and I'm not going to pretend that we don't have the days where she doesn't demand and demand to demand. On Sunday. We have family around ours and she's not used to be At home, she's not used to we are out all the time. We just doing stuff all the time so that boredom crept in and just like, my toys are boring, I'm never normally here. And she must have asked for milk about 25 times in about four hour period, but the boundaries remained the same. And sometimes I wanted to give milk and I'd be like, okay, and then other times would be like, my babies need a little bit of a reskill. Why don't we do blah, blah? Why don't we play with coffee shops? She's got this 10 Coffee Shop This thinks is amazing. Because it copies mommy's work. Why did we do blah, blah. But yeah, I think I'm not Yeah, there's no pretending that she doesn't ask. Probably more than I might like, but I'm just more comfortable saying actually, no, babe, Mommy. I mean, it's a little bit of a break. Let's go and find something else. That's going to be fun for us to do together. 

Emma Pickett  40:39

Yeah. So you got to a place where you were giving yourself permission to put boundaries in place, she was absorbing that and really understanding that and, and that felt like a really good precursor to night weaning. And I think that is, I think that's really important for people to hear, because I think people assume, Oh, I've only got a night Wait, that's just we're just going to carve that out separately, and independently. But actually, it's not always easy to practice those barriers when everyone is tired. And it's two o'clock in the morning, and little people can't engage their language brain that, you know, reptile brain is the only bit of brain available. But if you've done some boundaries in the day, then some of those memories and some of that muscle memory will come through into nighttime and definitely makes night winning a little bit easier. So you decided, right, third go, I'm having another go at night weaning? What led up to that? Was there a moment of thinking, right, this has been a particularly tough period of sleep, what was the motivation to actually finally have another go at night weaning,

Terri Dell  41:32

so it's actually two weeks after her second birthday, and I think it was the opposite of difficult time around sleep. I think by that time, we've moved to my other half, and my mom and ice that's in the notes. So we still coastally And yeah, I'm a bit funny about I can't, I the idea of waking up to her crying in the night is much worse than just sleeping with her. So I'd rather just sleep. But it was getting to a point where I did like, would have liked have a night in a bed, you know, not being woken up. So we decided to split the nights and seem irrelevant. So let's do two nights, my mom would do one night, and then I would do all the others. And then she would sleep all night long. There was no or even if she didn't, she might wake up once. Ask them where I was us from now. And they'd say in the morning. And generally she'd go back to sleep until about somewhere between half five and six. And then they bring her to me and I nursed her again, sometimes she'd go back to sleep until just last seven and sometimes she wouldn't. And that was kind of okay.

Emma Pickett  42:27

Can I just pause you there for a second? Terry? So some people listen to this and thinking, what? Hang on, you're telling me that your partner just started doing nighttime care without having historically done it. And Riley was like, Yeah, fine. No problem. Mommy's in the other room. Fine. We're cool. I just managed without. So you're in the house, you're in another room sleeping. And your partner's just saying mommy's asleep, Mommy's not available. And Riley is just cool with that. She was there wasn't a lot of tears, or what, what kind of strategies were they using?

Terri Dell  42:55

So what would definitely be helpful is I'm a bit of an obsessive runner, I runs five times a week, but I go to a running club on a Monday. And so that is one of the nights of the week. But generally, I'm not home for bedtime, because by the time I've got back, she's already down. That would always be very helpful. If I have lived in the process of bedtime, generally, she would be okay. But in truth, yeah, it kind of, I think maybe because we waited so long. And we honestly met her needs, every single time she woke for a very long time, to the point where some people like constantly for four minutes, you might shoot too much to go back to sleep. And I'd be like I could I don't want to do that. This was my child, this is what we decided to do. And honestly, we met her needs for such a long time, nearly two years of me going every time she woke up, going up saying everything's okay, let's go back to sleep, usually moving about sleep, then we slowly just transition to if she woke up between going to bed, and then us going to bed. So almost go in and be like mommy's just having a week or money's just doing this. So I'm just gonna lie with you. And she would lie with him and go back to sleep. And once we knew that she could lie with them and go back to sleep. In that instance, we were like, well, maybe we could extend that and see what happens to Riley, my mom is the best thing since sliced bread. So it's never gonna be a problem. Sleeping with my mum, that's never gonna be an issue. But with John, it was Yeah, starting by going in three weight cuts, and then me taking over eventually. And then we were like, Let's try extend this. And to be honest, I don't really remember her cry at all in the nights when he first took over, maybe very, very early hours of the morning when that sleep pressure was much, much lower. And it was much more like okay, I could think about waking for the day. And I think to begin with maybe I was taking over a little bit earlier, maybe like 4am Rather than him bringing her to me at like six. But yeah, generally, I think because we waited such a long time and because we were very responsive. There wasn't a you know, if she woke up and briars, one of us was going to Yeah, and generally it was me for at least the first 18 months. And then after that point, it's a little bit about If the mummy was able to roll, so I think she just got safe enough to know, that was always coming. And you know, mommy always comes home. Mommy's always around at some point.

Emma Pickett  45:07

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's, I'm glad that was your experience because no one would wish you to have have her being upset and sad. So she was ready from what you're describing, which just made it so much easier for you. So your partner's doing two nights, your mom's doing one night, you're back on duty, then without your breasts available? How was that? How did that go down? And what were you doing instead of breastfeeding. 

Terri Dell  45:29

So to be fair to start with, when I was doing my for four nights, I was still feeding through the night. So this for me, she would still wake up six plus times are nice, but with them to go through. So that was the kind of thing that made me like, she can do this, I just need to get my ducks in a row and get things together and organise myself better to deal with this. So I waited until two weeks later, a second birthday. And for two days before we did it, I was really clear on the message. I remember you said in your podcast, not to make it like two weeks of saying, Oh, we're going to do this in this much time because they don't have the concept of time. So I did it as in two sleeps time, we're not going to have milk every night. I thought about getting some books, but actually, I think I was she was old enough. And it's clear enough for us to just have a conversation about it. And we will talk about it sometimes, like talk about it as you know, Teddy could come to bed with us, but he's not gonna have any milk either or, and we just talk and talk at all. And then we did a bit of a method where the first night, she would wake and ask for milk. And I said no until two o'clock in the morning. And then at two o'clock in the morning, I was like, Okay, we're gonna ask them. Literally the following night, I pushed it back by an hour. And she asked us Nelson at 3am. I said yes, then I pushed it back. So for him following night, and so we got to five, and that's where I am now because I'm okay, I'm okay with 5am. Sleeping from x times to 5am without having milk. And I don't want to get up and start my day at 5am. I want to I want to stay in bed. And you know that sleep pressure is really, really low by that point. And yeah, my milk is exactly what she needs back to sleep. And so often, we get another, at least an hour and a half if not two plus hours if I should be from 5am. And that to me is why that 5am feed, I'm okay with that. 

Emma Pickett  47:09

Yeah, you're not alone. There are a lot of people just high fived ya know, for sure. So you extended it by an hour each time. But you didn't use a clock or anything. You just had that in your own head that that was what you were doing. And were you getting big tears again, whether five, seven minutes of tears. You're shaking your head? 

Terri Dell  47:28

No. Sorry. No. Yeah, I think on the worst night, it was slightly less than two minutes. I've watched enough when she was a newborn and kept every beat and every nappy and every sleep. And I tried to stop doing that so much as she got older. But yeah, I think it was kind of max two minutes, and I think I would offer water and she'd be like to begin with she was like, no, no, no. And then once she kind of come to understand that actually, it is just a no, there is no milk. Couple of times she might said yes, the mortar and have a sip of water. And then now, you know there is no interest in interest in water overnight. There's no interest in replacements. Yeah, and generally so some nights we get ATM till 5am Without any wake up at all. And then other nights they do get a couple of wake ups. But she will say can I say milk? And I'll say no. And then she'll turn around and call their bum and we went through a phase and actually you had a podcast about this recently that really made me think about it where she wants to hold the booty instead. But hold the booty med pinch and squeeze and grab. So for the first night I'd say you can hold the baby but not if you are going to sweep it. I think she's sleepy. She's like kind of forgetful. So after the first night of her doing that the next night the first time she held the baby and squeezed I was like no we're not going to do that baby no holding the baby to sit my make sure my like whatever I often have a onesie on in bed with Colsaerts the ones gonna be like Nope, we're not holding on to that sometimes we also need a bit more crying, but generally I would turn her in kind of ruining position and just pull her in. So I had some light on my upper arm. And her whole body's super close to me like she was like wrapped around me sometimes even a top leg wrapped around her legs. And I think that really that feeling of being gross, and really should just be like yeah, I'm gonna go back to sleep.

Emma Pickett  49:18

Okay, yes, spooning is definitely a good person. Yeah, turning away from the breasts and really snuggling and having that big body contact can be can be lovely. And did you see any change to her behaviour in the day when you're not winning? Was she more interested in breastfeeding during the day? Was she sort of clingy or about not my favourite word but it was described? Was she more into breastfeeding or do you didn't notice particularly any changes in the day?

Terri Dell  49:40

I didn't have time because that was around five months ago ish. So now at that time, I didn't really notice any big change Ben. More recently. I definitely think there's something developmental happening. Kind of two and a half mark is to there must be something happening because yes, we have had a lot of Mama Mama Mama she I used to love to drop off the childcare if you'd say you're going to hang out today to play. Let's go. And now when I turn on the morning that she's going Hannah's house, which has childcare, she'll start crying, and be like, No, stay with me, mommy. If she sees me put my running gear on, she's like, No, no, no, don't go running. Mommy, stay with Riley, stay with Riley. So there definitely is. But I think it's entirely unrelated tonight when because it's been such a long time since and I think it's just something developmental. She had been super unwell this week, though, both last night and the night before, up most of the night. And actually, I've been a first time since we'd like weaned. So coming up on I've made nearly six months, I have given her milk earlier. more from a health perspective point of view, because I'm thinking she is very unwell. So as well as Carpo have a dose of my amazing antibodies as well, because that all the speed this along, but my other half went in with her last night. And she was absolutely not fine. She woke up she cried because she's unwell. I left it until 4am and went back. And then I went in at 4am. And so tonight now she's been a bit bit better a bit brighter. Today, I will go back to Outlook sentiment and just say just you know, we're going back to you know, after the ex time. One foolish thing I think I would say to avoid that I did was I did do look when the sun shines. But we started not really October in England, which is just amazing.

Emma Pickett  51:22

Yeah, you're not alone with that. What doesn't work? Really? Doesn't the UK? Because dark at 4pm? What do you mean, isn't it? Yeah, so that's why sometimes little clocks with like Sun and Moon symbols can help. But yeah, so what happened in your case?

Terri Dell  51:36

Luckily, I think, because we had talked enough about it during the day, and I kind of been able to say, this is how it's gonna work. She just kind of was okay in waiting. And then because the structure is asleep, I I know, especially in his sporting and dealer, and I know but not everyone who night wins will get better sleep I'm there's that I want that to be like, I often six months, just because this was my experience doesn't mean it will be the same for everyone. Because some babies aren't waking for the same not always waking for the same reason. But for us. It definitely has helped with getting more sleep. And since seeing it started as like, she'd go eight till 11 And ask and then it came eight to one. And now I'd say on a fairly regular basis. It's a tool spice. The oven. I'm like, is she still alive? Because she turned her head down to the bottom of the bed like literally says she was sleeping when basically where my feet are and didn't move, or 66 hours. And I'm like, You're right. I'm like, I'm glad I go sleep with you. Because by now I might have been more nervous if I was looking at you on a camera. And let's just didn't start at all. Until 11 minutes past five which is bizarrely, almost you could sometimes I would say put a clock so that it is always the next minutes. And yeah, and then woken up milk. But yeah, I think it's doing again, if I were to ever do it again, I was probably maybe have waited to the summer or like you said, got on a walk that showed a lot of that kind of stuff. 

Emma Pickett  53:03

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned about how you're feeding again when you're ill because so many people ask me that question. They're like, but what is it okay to take a step back? It's okay to regress? Is it being inconsistent? Is it you know, am I doing something wrong, but you just have to follow your instincts at the end of the day, you just have to. And you know, children who are really unwell can end up being in hospital, they're not going to take rehydration solutions they can, you know, they can get genuinely unwell. And if you've got this magic thing that you're doing at 5am, the difference between 5am and 2am is not so significant. And even if there's a tiny bit of confusion for a child for a moment, that's still better than having a horrible night of no one's sleeping and being horribly unwell. And you can you can go back to that consistent message afterwards. So what are your future plans? Are you going to carry on now following her lead? Do you have any plans for how long you're going to breastfeed for? Are you just keeping it open?

Terri Dell  53:55

So my New Year's resolution for this year was to make sure I'm still nursing by the end of the year. So I would really love to still be going as we turn into 2025. So she'll be three. But in truth No. Because although we're talks about like reading on this podcast, and you know, I've talked about what I've done, I am stupid, lazy parents. I like co sleeping. 

Emma Pickett  54:17

It's the woman who runs five times a week. I don't think that it's I haven't run for like 20 years on purpose. So I don't think you can call yourself lazy Terrii?

Terri Dell  54:24

In terms of parenting, honestly, the easiest solution I will take so that's why maybe not. Maybe we should call it Attachment Parenting instead. But really, it's about meeting my own needs as much as hers. Yeah, that's quite the reason I co sleep and the idea of taking her taking any more of boob away from her is just sounds exhausting. So, as well as obviously all that kind of illogical benefits and the emotional attachment and that kind of stuff. Part of me is just like,

Emma Pickett  54:53

Well, why would why would you Why should you have to I mean that's, that is the key thing about parent led weaning. It's a tool that should exist in the world because some people need it. But if you don't need it, crikey, leave it in the box. Because, you know, self weaning and child led weaning is so much easier, you know, when it's going to be sad, it's going to be everyone ending breastfeeding, and they're on their own timeframe, there's, it is the ideal if you can, but as you know, from listening to my stuff, not everyone can not everyone should. And it's not right for everybody. But it's it's not lazy to practice child led weaning, it is what evolution is very much hoping you'll be able to do. So I hope that you feel proud of where you are. And I'm proud of the place where you are. And I'm just really glad that after all, your difficult start, this is how you're ending, hopefully your journey in a very gentle, loving way that works for both of you, which I think is really positive to hear. So you're just keeping it open. And you've got supportive family, your mum is your mom's obviously supportive, your partner's obviously supportive, and you've got your lovely peer support network as well. So you've just got that group of people around you who also understand that it's valuable to continue, which is great.

Terri Dell  55:58

I think if we get to a point where I am, it's just this is just too intense. And you know, that's just human he's been to anything to me is because I can't imagine Riley being one of those people that will cope with getting down to just one or two things today, I might be completely wrong, we might be a year down the line, and she's just a morning and nighttime from the feed, I just don't see her being as nice. She is very much like she loves the boom, is our first and most major reconnection tool. Every single time I've been anywhere, the first thing we do is come straight to melt. Again, it's one of those things where if I haven't seen it for a while, my name isn't my mum, my name is milk. So I feel like if we get to a point where I'm like, Oh, I can't do this, then we'll revisit whether we need to be looking at parent led weaning and how we walked down this path. But since definitely since putting in more boundaries in the day, and you're more nursing on us. And since night weaning to a degree, I kind of fall back in love with breastfeeding again a bit, I think it will start to get to a point where I was like, Oh, I don't know if I can be touched as much as this. And it would be foolish of me not to pretend there aren't some days or some fees where I'm a bit like that. But generally, I'm like, Oh, I just you know, her looking up at me, not so much the thing is in the mouth, but to a degree kissing the fingers. You know that moment of like, you're particularly about their time fee or bedtime fee when big cuddle and then often she'll pull up and be like, you're the best money and I'm like, I can't imagine not having that as a gauge to you every every time she's it's just, it's the ultimate thing to bring us back together. 

Emma Pickett  57:28

Yeah, I love that fallen back in love with breastfeeding. That's really special. I mean, that's really an advert for practising a bit of self care and the breastfeeding relationship and what can happen if you do that. Thank you so much for your time, Terry, I really appreciate it. Is there anything I haven't mentioned or we haven't talked about that you really wanted to make sure was covered in this session. 

Terri Dell  57:47

You know, just anybody is out and about having a hard time. Unfortunately, it is all free. It's all done by volunteers. But please just get what us what you can we will talk in south for example, we will talk about weaning and what the end of your journey looks like. And that's just as important to us at the beginning. And I think there's very few Facebook groups, whether it's ABN BFN or lecture leaf, you don't think the same thing. So if you're having a hard time, he's just find some support and know that sometimes just making a couple of changes can mean the difference between ending breast stops breastfeeding stop, or continuing for another good few years. And we would always be more than happy to talk about that and talk about your options. So please make sure you get some support if you need it. 

Emma Pickett  58:27

Yeah, thank you. What's the name of your cafe, Terry?

Terri Dell  58:30

Boston Tea Party Ringwood.

Emma Pickett  58:32

Boston Tea Party? Oh, I did American Studies at University and read lots about the Boston Tea Party. So Boston Tea Party in Ringwood right. Well, we'll all be there then on Monday to get your coffee and your cakes. And yeah, thank you very much for sharing your story today, Terri. I really appreciate it.

Terri Dell  58:47

Thank you so much for having me. 

Emma Pickett  58:48

It's been my pleasure.

Emma Pickett  58:53

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.