Breastfeeding boundaries and big feelings

There aren’t many things in a little person’s life that they have control over. When you start to impose boundaries or limit their autonomy over breastfeeding, you can often find that some big feelings come out in response. This week, I’m joined by parenting mentor Shelley Clarke, to talk about how we can help our little people experience those big feelings safely, what learning we may need to do about ourselves, and how you can strengthen your relationship as you negotiate change.

Find out more about Shelley on her website - www.shelleyclarke.com
Or follow her on Instagram @_shelleyclarke_

Find out more about breastfeeding and chest feeding older babies and children in my book Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond: A Guide for Professionals and Parents

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

Resources mentioned  - 

The Aware Parenting Institute - www.awareparenting.com
www.handinhandparenting.org
The Emotional Life of Babies, Marion Rose, Ph.D. 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Emma Pickett  00:00

Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end. So join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Emma Pickett  00:46

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm really honoured to be joined by Shelley Clarke, who is based in Adelaide, Australia, and she's a parenting mentor. She supports parents at lots of different stages of the parenting experience, including breastfeeding and ending breastfeeding. She's got lots of resources on her fantastic website, check out her 21 Days of Play. And also she offers one to one support for parents as well. I first met her because she was recommended to me by somebody called Rachel, who was a mum that I'd worked with. And she very kindly contributed to a section on my upcoming book on transitioning from breastfeeding. She's a very wise woman when it comes to supporting children emotionally, while also looking after ourselves as parents and looking after our own needs. So in this episode, we're going to explore bringing breastfeeding to an end in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. How do we support the big feelings from little people, when we may be feeling dysregulated ourselves, and basically a big conversation around big feelings and boundaries. And we may not answer all the questions in one hour, but I'm hoping this conversation is going to help somebody who's struggling with weaning because their little person's emotions are very overwhelming. And they're not quite sure how to move forward in a way that doesn't cause distress. They don't want to cause distress. They don't want to end breastfeeding in a way that causes upset. How do they meet everybody's emotional needs moving forward? That's a bit of a mouthful, Shelley, but I think you deserve that kind of detailed introduction. Thank you very much for joining me today.

Shelley Clarke  02:19

Ah, thank you so much for having me. It's lovely to be here. And I really love these conversations. So thank you very much. 

Emma Pickett  02:26

Good, good. So when we very first started talking about weaning, you told me a little bit about your own parenting journey. And you explained that when you were struggling with your own boundaries and your parenting experience, you sort of went out and you looked for information. And you've you felt that you were sort of stuck moving forward, you didn't really feel that there was an answer out there that fitted what you needed. Tell me a little bit more about that time. And and what answers were you finding and what didn't feel right. 

Shelley Clarke  02:55

Yeah, sure. So I have three children just for those that that may not learn listening. So the really, this was sort of with my, my first and my second, and particularly my second, she breastfed a lot. And we fed, you know, extended breastfeeding time. And I anytime she was upset, I would feed her. And the boob was my solution for for everything really. And till it wasn't really working. And our sleep wasn't really well, we weren't sleeping. She wasn't sleeping, I wasn't sleeping. And so I was starting to look at like, well, what am I do here where I felt I did, I felt stuck, as you said. And so when I was researching options, people would give me the one end of the spectrum of you've just got to let her cry and control crying. This is around sleep, not so much feeding. But you know, it was like, leave them. And that was one end. And I was like, Oh, that doesn't feel good. That goes against every fibre of my being. And then the other end was what I was doing. And it kind of felt like an open milk bar all night long. And we were co sleeping and fit feeding and but she was restless and I wasn't sleeping and I was exhausted. And I was like these are my two options like what I don't know what's, you know, what else is out there. And so I went down that path of trying to find a way that really resonated with me to you know, to move forward. And I came across Hand in Hand parenting and aware parenting and two beautiful philosophies in parenting that are based in attachment theory, their attachment style philosophies, which resonated with my wanting to stay connected to her and meet her attachment needs and have that really strong bond and connection, which we know is so vital for children. And so it was meeting that need for me, but it had another piece that I didn't know About yet, and which we'll talk more about today, and is the piece around understanding feelings. 

Emma Pickett  05:07

Yeah. And not being frightened to feelings, which is really your was really valuable in that. And I really appreciate that. And so you went out looking for a solution. And essentially, the message was suck it up, because good parents just struggle through this. And and I've talked about a little bit this before in my work that we almost idealise for being completely charged led, if you are a strong enough mother, if you're a good enough mother, you should be able to breastfeed until your child wants to end breastfeeding, you should be able to stay completely responsive. And if you can't meet that you're you're failing in some way. And those are the people that I often meet who are saying, I'm struggling and working full time, I can't make this completely charged. Let breastfeeding work. But I don't want to feel that I failed in that that can't be right, surely. So you get that message. Or you get the message of go for a spa weekend with your friends leave your child for a weekend, they'll stop breastfeeding, or, you know, as you say, close the door on them, literally, they'll end up not breastfeeding at night, and that there's this these very extreme messages. And we've and you are great at helping people find that middle ground. And that's something that I aspire to do as well. I think parents often feel really guilty about looking after themselves. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on what would happen if somebody continued to breastfeed when they were genuinely miserable. You know, they might have a version, they might not have a version, but their breastfeeding relationship is really making them sad and grinding them down on a daily basis. It may not be every feed is horrible. It may not be every feed as hated, but enough are that you're starting to dread being home, you want to be out you want to be off the sofa, you purposely go to soft play to avoid breastfeeding. If someone's in that place, and they carry on breastfeeding, what sort of impact would that have on them? And potentially, on their relationship with a child? 

Shelley Clarke  06:54

Yeah, well, my first point with this around guilt is that guilt in there's a narrative around us as mothers and parents around mother guilt and guilt is something it's actually learned from our society, it's learned from things we've heard things we've been led to believe. And often we then tell ourselves those stories. And we continue that in our head, like I'm a good mother, if I feed all the time and meet all my baby's needs, but actually, we're really, truthfully, we're, we're sad. And we would rather go out. And, you know, our own needs are being dismissed when we continue to override what we are feeling as a parent. And so one thing that I've learned from one of my mentors, Marian rose, around guilt is that we can put those guilt sticks down, we don't have to keep beating ourselves up over like ourselves over the head with these sticks that we pick up and continue like that in our harsh dialogue. And so for a parent, I would ask a couple of questions of what are you telling yourself? Am I telling myself that I have to keep feeding because otherwise my child, you know, might be dead at the data. And is that actually true. And so the first thing around guilt is, is to we can put that down, we can put that narrative down and start to look at our own needs, and really valuing our own needs as parents and as mothers and when we're not meeting our own needs, we can start to burn out, we start to like you said before, get really overwhelmed in our nervous system. And it can be very hard to regulate our own nervous system. Because when we follow up with our own emotional, unmet needs, that we might get resentful, we might start to resent our child and our children start to feel that they can, you know, they might not feel it explicitly, but they do feel that underlying kind of angst between you where we start to override our own needs. And so one of the things with this beautiful philosophy that I've learned is that our needs matter. And it is really, it's about this third way of, of everyone's needs in the family, how can we get everyone's needs met. And so if we have a need to finish feeding, because we have a desire to go out and have our life back, like you're saying and, and start to feel a little more normal within ourselves, then one, we can put that guilt down and know that when you meet your own needs as a parent, you're actually then able to really show up and be present for your kids in the way that they need you to be. And so I would say that it's vital for us as parents to have our own needs met so that we can hold space for our kids big feelings and behaviours so that we are able to regulate in a way where we're showing up in we're not losing our cool and getting resentful and getting better and all of these things because we're not when not meeting our own needs. So I would say it's, it's vital for us to do it if we can shift that perspective a bit.

Emma Pickett  10:07

Yeah, we've got to have those authentic emotional connections with our children at the end of the day, haven't we and I know a lot of my work is about helping people to continue breastfeeding. That's probably the majority of my work. But I do have a group of people who probably do need to bring things to an end to be able to have a healthy emotional connection with their children moving forward. And I think people often imagine they're better acting than they are, or and they think that they can come across as not having a problem at all. Yes, no problem that's ever breastfeed. But there's a microexpression there of a gritted, you know, gritted teeth, and it might be counting down your head, you might be literally counting down, there's a body language, there's going to be a tension in your body. And even very little people can read those micro expressions and read those tensions and cents. Hang on, there's something that doesn't feel safe here. Breastfeeding was my safe place. But yeah, I sense they're not, you know, in this as much as I am, and you can end up getting into a negative spiral where the little person asks even more, because they're panicking, that something's not right. And they're feeling that resentment from you. And just at the moment, and breastfeeding gets even harder, the little person asks even more, because they're looking for that reassurance, and things really get out of hand. So we've, you know, you really want to encourage parents to get to that authentic place and their connection with their child. And it doesn't necessarily mean full weaning. It could mean partial weaning or winding things down. And that's something that we hopefully will support people to do in this conversation. And I know that when you look back at your own winning experience, you talk about it as being actually a really positive parenting experience. It wasn't about loss, it was about adding in things. Tell me about what what made that a positive experience for you? 

Shelley Clarke  11:47

Yeah, I think the the and you're so right about babies being able to feel those microbrew those undercurrents and our nervous system. So I just wanted to really say that children will feel us they will feel us before they were before we say anything, that's what a baby is feeling. And so really being congruent in in our own emotional needs and our how we're feeling it's really, really important that for my own time, it became special because I initially thought well, what do I have if I don't breastfeed? Oh my gosh, I'm going to lose that connection with my child. That's what we've used to connect and have that snuggle time and, and I actually went through a did to have grieving period was like, Oh, my gosh, but they won't need me anymore. And if I stopped feeding what, what are we what do I have? What tools do I have to calm them down? But there's a lot I realised through this work and through all the things I've studied and learnt, and through my own kids experience and the experience we had, that they need me. They don't necessarily need milk, and the boob, they need me. So they need me to show up with my connection with iContact with my love with my presence with my walls. And for me to show up in that way. Actually, it really deepened our relationship, because we played and we laughed, and we connected and we snuggled and we started to we'll talk more about play in a minute. But it just, it actually was really rich and really warm during that time. So rather than it being a loss and me thinking, oh, gosh, what else have I got now? I had all these other tools, and it actually really warmed our relationship and we became closer. 

Emma Pickett  13:33

Yeah, I like what you said at the beginning about how it can feel a bit scary to imagine losing breastfeeding. If you've been responsibly breastfeeding mom or parent, it's been absolutely central. It's been your swiss army knife, you know, it's done everything. And to imagine taking that put you in a drawer and saying goodbye to it forever, is genuinely quite scary. I mean, how would you get a child to go to sleep? What do you do if they're having a meltdown, we'll talk about big feelings a bit more in a minute, minute. terrifying, but also such a great opportunity to get really skilled and learn lots of special important ways that in the long term, you'll be able to connect with your child and, and get confidence rather than sit around fearing the loss of something, you're going to build your confidence in so many different areas of parenting. And I know play is really key to your work. I'm not going to ask you to give away all your secrets because people need to connect with you and look at your resources on your website. But it'd be great to talk in a bit more detail about play because I think for lots of people weaning after about 18 months it is going to be play that fills that gap. So with the breastfeeding is taken away, there's a vacuum is going to be played for a lot of people that fills that space. So what is it about play that really can help that weaning experience?

Shelley Clarke  14:49

Well, hmm, so much and there is a lot of information out there and if people do want to find out more, you know, a lot of my work is based in the theory of aware parenting, which is a whole philos The fee around, you know, attachment parenting and understanding feelings and crying and play. And it's the work of Dr. Aletha. Solter. So if people want to go and find out more, there's a website, and there's resources and they can, you know, do your own reading and see what resonates. But plays out, plays that children's first language, it's, it's how they process their world. It's how they, you know, bring in what's coming in around them. And they are working out what's happening through play, it's how they learn the world around them. And when we see play in this way, we can help children to process what's happening for them, we can help them process, the end of breastfeeding and a change in the dynamic, we can help them process potty training and toilet training, we can join them in play and help them with separation anxiety, there's so much we can do to connect with our children through play. And so, you know, with breastfeeding, and if we're wanting to come to an end, then play is going to be one of the biggest tools that I help teach parents about.

Emma Pickett  16:10

So when you talk about processing is symbolic play something that you use and that processing system sort of process. Tell me a bit more about what symbolic plays in the weaning conversation? 

Shelley Clarke  16:22

Yep, absolutely. So symbolic plays one of the nine types of attachment play that are where parenting teachers, and there's other play theories and things out there. And so symbolic plays definitely used in all many types of play therapy. And so symbolic plays really when we are inviting children a child to play out a scenario. And so we're using play as a symbolic representation of what's happening for them. And so with parents, I will say, even with 18 month olds, you can do this, I have an 18 month old niece right now, and you can play with her children understand so much more than we give them credit for, you can invite them into a conversation that you're using Play. And so you might say, hey, let's play, let's play feeding, and you might get some toys, and some dollars, or some trucks or some animals or whatever toys your children your child is interested in. And it might even be that you roleplay. And so you're symbolically playing out the feedings scenario, through role playing or through toys. And so what you'll do is you will invite them into that conversation, and you'll say, I want to play breastfeeding, or let's play, let's play feeding. And then you just sit back and wait. And you see where your child takes it, they will show you what they need to work through and what's coming up for them. They will take the play in whatever direction they need to, to process the feelings that they have coming up. 

Emma Pickett  17:52

So you can watch and even, you know, without having qualifications in play therapy, you can observe your child, see what scenarios they're working through. And even pre verbal, even if at 18 months old doesn't have language, that's something that you can still learn from. And would there be a time and I talked about roleplay with my clients, which perhaps is a little bit different, because that is sometimes going to be a little bit more parent led where you might say, you know, his mommy, daddy, and Mommy Teddy's feeling really tired now, mommy, Teddy doesn't want to do boobies. So what can we do with baby Teddy instead? To help baby Teddy is that is do you think it's valid for a parent to lead in that way? 

Shelley Clarke  18:31

Yes, yes, absolutely. So there's a few things that are really important when we're giving when we're trying to end and breastfeeding, but also in anything that we're doing with our children. So you can apply these things for, you know, if there's a holiday coming up, or if they're going to visit grandparents, you can, you know, apply these things, kids need information. So giving them information is helpful. It helps to, we know what's coming then. And it's it's calming on our nervous system when we know what is coming. And it's the same for adults. You know, the unknown is one of the things that will ramp up our nervous system and, you know, give us some feelings because we don't know what's coming. And so giving kids information. Now, you can do that through the role playing that you were just suggesting, you know, here's a Teddy, mummy, Teddy and baby Teddy, and you're giving them information of what's going to happen. We're going to feed here at this time, and then we won't have any more feeding until the morning or will feed in the morning. And then we won't feed again until whenever you know, and you can change that to a however you want it to look. But giving information for kids is really, really important. So that role playing Yes, absolutely. And it's a great place to start. The symbolic play and attachment play is slightly different because what we're wanting to do is look where our children are starting to giggle and laugh. So we're really using laughter as a way of the arm processing those feelings and that emotional release is coming through laughter. And so in this symbolic game that you're playing with the mummy, Teddy and a baby Teddy, and then all of a sudden, the baby Teddy jumps on to the mummy Teddy and the mummy is going crazy or something, you know, you want to, you know, you might ham up the scenario a little bit. But wherever your child starts to giggle, you keep doing that, you just keep repeating the same thing, because it's the laughter that is helping your child to process what's happening. And so, you know, symbolic plan, attachment plan, using laughter, in this way is slightly different to just role playing it out. That's great for giving information. But we also want to try and help shift the feelings through their body. So we want laughter, we want movement. Crying is great, it's a good thing. And we'll talk about crying a bit more in a minute. But we want them to have a chance to giggle and laugh, because that helps release the tension in their body. It helps them relax, and it helps them feel connected and safe with you, which is what they were probably getting with that breastfeeding. And now they're getting it through play and laughter and connection. 

Emma Pickett  21:11

Yeah, so in that scenario, when mommy Teddy doesn't want to breastfeed, makes a big silly noise. And, and that that sort of silly noises is the way that you can get that giggling happening, that laughter happening. So there's a deep, there's a deep underlying emotion behind it. But there's the laughter is the way that they're able to relax around that, that that reaction and feel that reaction differently. And so I know you talk a lot about following the giggles. And that's something that I love about what you're saying. And it's something that I talk about in my work with clients as well. I'm big on boobs talking, for example, I think it's really great if breasts can say I'm a bit tired now and I need a rest and there won't be any milk until naptime and perfect, no different accents. And they took in silly voices. And you know, when when someone requests a breastfeed and you're declining, there's that horrible moment of tension and fear of their reaction. And, and if you can do it in a way that comes from humour. So there's a true meaning behind it. There's an authentic meaning behind it. But there's laughter there too. You're automatically releasing those emotions. Tell me a little bit more about your following the giggles what are some of the things that you would recommend someone does, if they have a request to breastfeed for a breastfeed that they don't necessarily want to meet?

Shelley Clarke  22:25

Yeah, and I first came across following the giggles from Patty Wipfler. She is the founder of Hand in Hand Parenting, you know, I really, really resonated with me because it was really simple. And parents, I just say to parents, whenever your child's laughing, follow that giggle. So if you've all of a sudden, your boob is talking, and it's saying, No, we're not going to feed today, we're going to feed tomorrow, you know, whatever it is, and then your child's laughing, I would keep that going. Because it's the laughter that is helping them to express those underlying feelings. Laughter is great to release fear. Laughter is excellent, aren't releasing any frustration, intention, embarrassment, you know, those things really shift where we are laughing and giggling. As an example, this isn't a breastfeeding example. But this literally just happened yesterday with a client that I had in the clinic. And it's, she was three, that four, and we were playing a game of Chasey, around the Mayo Clinic, this tiny little room. So I was following her really closely. And she has just been on a holiday with cousins. And so she got left behind a lot with cousins, you know, older cousins that she was trying to follow. So I kept saying, I'm right behind you, and right behind you. And she then sped up and started to giggle and I thought, oh my gosh, you're going so fast. And she sped up again, like slow down, I can't keep up. And she sped up again around the room. And I was following her around the room. But she kept going faster and faster. Because every time she did that she was laughing, because it was helping her to release those feelings of powerlessness. Because, you know, she just spent a holiday with her cousins that she couldn't keep up with her cousins. So there was a lot of feelings there. And then this game, you know, I didn't know that that's where it was gonna go. You just follow your child and follow their lead. And all of a sudden, you'll create your own games that are unique to you and your child. And the laughter will be helpful. You know, the laughter was helping her to shift those feelings of like, I'm slow. I can't keep up. I'm too little. I'm too young, then. You know, whatever else she was feeling. She was laughing laughing laughing because all of a sudden, she was the fast one. And I was the one that was slow and couldn't catch up to her. And so with feeding if you if your child's you know asking for a feed and pulling your shirt down, I would maybe come in with really loving laughing No. And they'll go Oh, no, no, no, no. And I would hold their hands and I would give them some kisses. And so go no, no, no, no, and kiss their hands Kiss Kiss, kiss, kiss kiss. And then they will probably that will probably bring some laughter and then they'll do it again. And then you go no No, no, no, no and you kiss, kiss, kiss, kiss kiss. And so you're saying no, but you're saying it in a playful way. And you're following wherever they're giggling, wherever they're laughing, and we're and that is helping them to shift the feelings that are underneath, or it also could be meeting the need for connection. You know, sometimes kids will come and ask for a feed, because they want in connection. And that's the only way that they have had that with you up until now. And so, you know, if they're coming to ask for a feed, and you're offering connection through laughter, and play and through, then turning it into a chaser game, or turning it into 100 cases where you plan to 100 cases on them. Or even I've had a client squeeze out, pretend to squeeze out some breast milk into their hand, and call it the love cream. And so then it's like, Oh, love milk, and then you're smearing love milk on the on, on your child, and they're laughing and giggling because, you know, it's again, it's wherever you want to take it. And it's only really limited by your imagination and, and, and your child's imagination and just following what comes?

Emma Pickett  26:06

Yeah, I'm not saying it's easy, because if it's only five at five o'clock in the morning, to have to engage with that imaginative side of yourself can be pretty tough sometimes, but you know, joking about how there's no milk in your breasts, but let's try your elbow. And let's try a little finger. And is there anything, anything coming out your shoulder? No, I mean, that sort of silliness is going to defuse that tension. I like what you said earlier about the concept of power, and how that little girl you were helping was feeling that powerlessness. And in that, in that game was looking to feel powerful. I think that's a really important concept. When we're talking about breastfeeding in this age group, the sort of 18 month plus, the request for a breastfeed is often really empowering. And it's the, you know, the person they love most in the world, they've got this communication where they can ask for something, and have it met. And it's just amazing and wonderful. So when that stops working, and when they're not allowed to have that feed anymore, they're feeling really disempowered, and they feel a lot loss of agency. And there's a sort of, as you say, almost an embarrassment. They just feel very unsettled by losing that sense of power. So, so power reversal play, I know is one of the kinds of attachment play. Tell me a little bit more about the value of that in this context. 

Shelley Clarke  27:15

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, power reversal. Again, power reversal, games are one of the biggest key things that changed my parenting. And you can, you can apply it to any situation. But in feeding like this, you know, like you said, children don't have a whole lot of choice and agency on what happens in their day. And the more that we can give that to them, then, you know, they have that agency, and they have that autonomy and choice. And we all need that. There's a lot of powerlessness that children will feel in many different areas. So a power reversal game is exactly that. It's where we as the adult will take on that less powerful role. And the child is in that more powerful role. So they might be the mummy. And you might be the child that is asking for the breastfeed. And you as the child go up to them and say mummy, mummy Mummy, and then they get to say no, or they get to run away, or they get to do whatever they want to do is the more powerful one. And that game in itself. Just it's so it's so crucial in helping them to move through those feelings of powerlessness. And often, if they were asking for a feed beforehand, often that connection and play and laughter, they won't ask again afterwards, they will then run off and do the next thing that that we're doing. It can make that transition so much more easy when we bring in some power reversal games.

Emma Pickett  28:44

So I think one of the things that I've observed working families in this winning space is that when we start off breastfeeding with responsive breastfeeding, which is what most of us do these days, we're so used to using the breast as a sort of multipurpose tool if a child is hungry, if they're sad, if they need help to get to sleep, if they're overstimulated, we plunk them on the breast is amazing absolutely works. And I sometimes meet families that have got a little bit trapped, perhaps possibly possibly the word where if the child has big emotions, breastfeeding has become the way to close that down to stop that happening to calm them down. And they've almost got to place their where their child is, you know, two worlds within to where they've never actually seen a meltdown. They've never seen the child necessarily have a full range of big feelings, maybe once in the car when they're on the motorway. But you know, other than that, it really hasn't happened because they've always offered the breast and for both the parent and the child, those big feelings have never really happened and to end breastfeeding and to not have that tool to end those big feelings is genuinely quite terrifying. So when little people are having meltdowns, and I don't know what word you use to describe it and some people say tantrums Another say tantrum, what's actually going on for a little person when that's happening? And, and how can we help parents to support through those without feeling it's their job to shut them down? 

Shelley Clarke  30:11

Great question. And I firstly want to say if you are listening to this, and that is, you know, this is exactly me with my second child, you know, I fed her a lot. And it worked. It was great, but I didn't know any different. And that's okay. We also got to a point where then it didn't, wasn't working anymore. We weren't sleeping. And she was, it was still a lot there. And I didn't know what to do with these feelings. So I know exactly. I was this person that you were just talking about. I suppose we come back to one of the other pillars aware parenting is plays a big part. But then also understanding feelings and understanding that crying and raging and offloading our feelings. Crying is our natural way to recover from stress and overwhelm, crying is really normal and natural. And a baby will cry, to get their needs met, for food and to be heard and to go to sleep and to have all of their immediate needs met, they will cry for that reason. But every baby will cry to also recover from stress and overwhelm, if they've been out at a party. And it's been loud and noisy, they will probably sleep through the party, but then when they come home, they might be more settled. And they might cry more, because it's very normal for a baby to cry to tell us about their day, to tell us and to express those feelings and offload them. Now, you know, generally in generations, the way we've parented, our society hasn't been great with listening to babies cry, we want to fix it. And we want to stop them from crying now popping them on the boob does that, like you said, it's wonderful, and it can stop those feelings. But often what might be happening is that it doesn't necessarily mean that your child has had a chance to let them all out, it's actually just often suppressed it and it gets held in their body. And so if that's been what we've been doing and suppressing those feelings, when we come to end the breastfeeding and what that's no longer our mechanism to, you know, often it's like, imagine putting a lid on it, then those feelings can come out in huge big, you can call them meltdowns, I find meltdowns have a still bit like tantrums, I don't use that word, either. Because both of them have that connotation of the child's naughty or they're doing it on purpose, or they are just trying to do it to manipulate you or to get your own way. But I really see all feelings are normal and natural, the whole range of our human experience, every single person on the planet will feel angry, sad, scared, fear, terror, grief, we will all feel all of those things. And so what I help parents do is to really be comfortable with holding space for our children's feelings and for their crying. And when they are laying on the floor at 18 months old, kicking their arms and legs and having a full expression of their rage or their frustration, then moving their bodies, they're crying, they're releasing exactly the buildup of feelings that are in their body. So they're doing exactly what they're meant to do. And as a parent, if we can see it as a good thing, and not something we need to stop and fix, then what we can do is come alongside them, maybe sit down on the floor next to them. And just say, I'm right here, sweetheart, I hear you. I'm sorry, it's we're not going to have a feed right now. I'm here, I'm listening. And then you just make sure everyone's safe. And then no one's getting hurt. And you allow the child to do their job. Their job is to really offload, they will offload hard. And they will let it all out. And often if we can really hold space for that full range of feelings, our children move through it. And then they pop out the other side of it. And they often just jump up and go, Okay, I'm going to play now. Or if it's an 18 month old and they don't speak, they might go how cuddle and they come out of their mouth down and you know, the big lot of feelings and they come and have a cuddle with you. And what you've done is you've actually really deeply met that need for them to be heard and seen and to express themselves. And often our connection stronger after that you've held space for all of their feelings. And so it's a reframe, from the meltdowns being a bad thing, or the crying being a bad thing. To actually this is really healthy. It's really good. It's really normal and natural. How can I welcome it it, how can I welcome it in a way that then I'm holding space for their, for their feelings? Which is hard? I'm not saying that's easy thing to do. 

Emma Pickett  35:10

Yeah, no, I appreciate I appreciate that. I acknowledged that. Thank you, Shelley. So I had a guest on our podcast a couple of weeks ago, a few weeks ago talking about where parenting and yeah, she said that she was nervous. And I sort of agree with her. So I'd be interested to know what your feeling is about this. The idea of a baby crying and leaving a baby to cry is perhaps something that doesn't sit comfortably alongside responsive breastfeeding. And, and it's difficult to process because actually, for a very, very little person who's dysregulated for a small baby, I don't think it's easy to explain why you wouldn't put them on the breast. And this isn't about where parenting. So I'm not going to have a mega pin on that one. But yeah, it'd be interesting to know, my gut feeling is that Elisa salt has presented a set of thinking that is really reframing our approach to parenting. So to do that, she's she's taken the logical conclusion to some quite extreme places that not everybody feels 100% comfortable with. But she's needed to do that to get us to question and think and look at the world in a new way. So I'm personally not going to suggest that someone leaves a baby of a few months old to cry, because crying is healthy. But I don't want you to think that means I'm just missing the whole of the web. 

Shelley Clarke  36:24

I know, can I No, no, I'll just add a little. Yeah, no, keep going. I will just tell you

Emma Pickett  36:28

tell me if I've misunderstood, I really would love to hear your thoughts on that. 

Shelley Clarke  36:33

Yeah, so one thing that is very, very different, because we aren't leaving a baby to cry. So we're not ever leaving a child to cry. It's absolutely with our presence, and with our attention and connection. And we also want to make sure that all of our baby's needs are met. And so it's always making sure that we have had, that they've had a feed, and that they have been had their needs met for food. And for you know, that, yes, we would absolutely be welcoming, responsive feeding. So my thing would be always to follow what we are comfortable with as a parent, always. And so if a parent and I work with a lot of parents, and we feel all the time, and you know, we can and I would say for the first, absolutely want to get milks that establish we want to have breastfeeding established, we want to feed and I would put them on a boom, you know, and feed them. If though there are times that sometimes, and I certainly with my third because I had learned this. So I have I've done this at varying stages with each of my children. So there's some times when, you know, when you might pop a baby on the breast, and you know, they're agitated, and they're like pulling off and they're not feeling well. And then they're fussy, and you know, you think either maybe they've got a wind and you sit them up and you you know, do all the things that you run through your checklist of things. What I would do in that scenario, if you've run through everything, and you think are they're still not it's not, you know, they're not settled. They're not. You know, feedings not, it's they're not settling, then I would often say to a parent, you know, offering your presents with them, so we're not ever leaving a baby to cry on their own.

Emma Pickett  38:31

So we're never physically leaving a baby for it. Yeah, for sure. I totally understand. Right. But no, and I hear what you're saying that, that we're going to meet the breastfeeding needs first. Yeah, if that's not working anymore, we're not going to go into a state of panic and think, Oh, my God, I've got to fix it. I've got to fix it. What's the next thing that's gonna fix it? Yeah, it could just be that literally holding a child in that moment. Makes sense. And I hear what you're saying. Yeah, it's not. It's not with with holding the breast gritting saying, we're following parental instincts we're meeting needs. Yes. Yeah. No, thank you for clarifying that.

Shelley Clarke  39:03

I think that's probably where, you know, where parenting as probably, you know, gets a little bit missed in that Aletha would always be always be meeting meeting needs as first. So even attachment needs of holding babies of cosleeping of of babywearing of being close of being held that is paramount. That's the first point of a web parenting. So meeting all of our needs, and then meeting all of our immediate needs, like food, and closeness and connection and all that. And then if we've tried all of those other things, if we've done all the checklist, and rather than because I used to get really then panicked, like, oh my gosh, what else is there? And I would start to feel myself get more and more agitated with with my child's crying, which would then agitate them even more because I would feel panicked in my body. And that meant that we were down this path of like, you know, everyone's distressed. 

Emma Pickett  39:59

Yeah, so That's really helpful. I'm glad you clarified that I think. I think there is a misunderstanding perhaps from people who haven't read aware parenting in detail, although that they've just heard this nugget of how crying is healthy crying is a hormonal release crying itself has a value and their misunderstanding to think that means that, you know, crying is as glorious thing that we sit and observe and hold the child neurons or they cry. But we're doing all the stuff that feels instinctively right first, yes, yeah, that's, that's really helpful. 

Shelley Clarke  40:27

We want to meet their needs. First we want to meet. And sometimes the trick for me is always being like, Okay, I've checked off all those other things, then I try and stay really calm in my body and think, Okay, well, maybe they just need to have a really big crack. Because I've tried the feeding, I've tried the boob, I've tried all these things, then I'll just hold them. And that'd be really calming my body. And I'll say, Sweetheart, I'm here and listening. If there's anything you need to tell me, you know, and they might have a bit cry. But then I'm always saying and thinking in the back of my mind, if I haven't worked out what it might be, I might say, I'm not sure what they say, sweetie, I'm here to listen until I work this out. And then it might be they go, Oh, maybe they do have another pulley nappy, oh, I'll just check the nappy again. Or you're always constantly looking for is there a need to be met, that I haven't thought of. And, and we can hold space for their tears as well. So I just wanted to I know, we've like off topic of weaning, but they just wanted to, like, clarify that, that you were we're never leaving a baby to cry alone. Because that can be being flooded with child. That's like, you know, and we are also wanting it to be with, with our presence with our connection, we're never just, you know...

Emma Pickett  41:39

so we've got to be regulated. So to answer yes, to where you just described it there, we have to be regulated to be able to do that. So coming back to that moment of the two year old on the floor, crying because you've put a boundary in place around breastfeeding, and we're next to them, for you to be able to support them. We've got to be able to be regulated. And we've got to be able to use our language in a way that genuinely is calm. Again, we're being authentic, we're not faking it. And I think one of the things that sort of I've had a realisation over the last few years doing this work is so many of us have been damaged from our own parenting in the 20th century. And through and you know, we're not blaming individual parents, or, you know, obviously, there are people who have had abusive parenting experiences with their own parents, but so many of us weren't in spaces where emotions were welcomed. And we literally don't know how to do it, we would admit, you know, we're starting from scratch, we're breaking cycles. And it's, it's really hard when a child is upset next to you to not perceive it as your failure. And I think attachment parenting has gone almost a little bit too far into the we don't care about parents needs it her. We've just got to have happy children, we then got to do everything we can to meet our child's needs 100%. And if we're not doing that we're being selfish. We're being wrong. We're being abusive. And because we've sort of overcorrected, a little bit of really almost yet to come back to the middle that says, you know, our needs matter to this is such a huge question. But how do we regulate ourselves when we are incredibly burnt out? And we're parenting two year olds and working and not sleeping? I mean, how does that even begin that process?

Shelley Clarke  43:17

And I agree with, you know, is really that swing from, you know, all child lead and or, you know, a calm and happy child. But at the expense of our own needs, we, you know, it's finding that third way or that middle ground where our needs matter to and like you said, how do we start finding spaces where our own emotional needs can be heard. And so it can be really, really hard to listen to a child's feelings and crying if we haven't even had anyone listen to ours, or we have been so shut down ourselves, because we've learned through our own upbringing, that crying wasn't okay, and that you weren't allowed to cry and you weren't able to be angry or frustrated or any of those other feelings. So finding spaces and ways that we can express our own feelings, and empty some of our own emotional backlog, so that we can then hold space for our children. So our own tears and crying and laughing is really, really powerful. And that might be in support sessions in mentoring sessions in group work in a therapy sessions in ways to help to understand your own emotional needs, and have a space for that to be heard. Hand in hand parenting do a beautiful tool, which is a listening partnership, where you have another adult and you talk through your own what's going on in your own world. And I would say if you are wanting to start a weaning process, having some listening time was paramount for me. In pretty much anything that I want to change in my parenting starting with me first, what does it bring up for me? What does it bring up? When I think about wanting to say no to my child? What is, you know, what are my feelings about it? grief, sadness, and having a space for my own crying was just the place that I would start. And if we don't have someone journaling, but allowing our own feelings to be moved through finding ways to offload our own tension, which means that then when when our kids are laying on the floor or crying, we can then go, Oh, that felt so good when someone held space for me and listened to my me cry. I can offer that to my children now. 

Emma Pickett  45:44

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that is that's really valuable. And people go journaling, when the hell have I got time to do that. But journaling can also be while you're brushing your teeth, thinking in your head thoughts, you know, while you're in the supermarket, giving yourself five minutes to focus on one particular thought in one particular area thinking doesn't necessarily have to be literally writing something down. It could be voice notes on your phone while you're walking. There's lots of exact things. Yeah, yeah. So let's, so the little person on the floor, crying, desperately sad, because you said it's another hour so we can have a breastfeed, and mommy's body's tired now, and we can do this or that. And they're like, I don't want frigging this or that I want just to breastfeed, so they're lying on the floor. They're sad, they're distressed. So you've talked about how the parent is talking and explaining and using their voice calmly, but maybe not always talking, maybe just sometimes just being and sitting? Would that be a moment to follow giggles? Or is that dismissive of the child's emotional state? What else could happen in that moment?

Shelley Clarke  46:41

I agree with talking less, most of the time, we try and explain things a lot as parents and we were trying to talk to that kind of cognitive brain, you know, talking level with a child, but if they are crying on the floor, the best thing that we can do is allow them to have that full expression of those tears. And so saying less, and it might just be I'm right here, sweetheart, I know you really want to feed, I'm listening, I'm sorry, not right now we're doing you know, whenever whenever it is that you will feed or if it's tomorrow, we can do that tomorrow. And so giving them a little bit of information, but really, it's bringing your presence, your body, your nervous system, you're calm and centred anchor that sort of rooted in, I always imagined myself being like this kind of tree that's really rooted in the grounds, I'm just like, I've got this, I'm right here with you. There's nothing you can do right now that I'm scared of, that I'm worried about. This is okay, we'll move through this, we don't need to say those things to them. But our, our body language is conveying that to them. And, you know, it's just about helping them to move through that. And we don't even need to help, actually, our job is just to come alongside them, and they will do that process, I probably wouldn't follow giggles if a child is crying, then that's what they need to express. So if a child is already crying, I would sit with them through that until they will often get to the end of that cry, and they might look at you and they might have a little joke. And then it might turn into a bit of a game and a play and a snuggle. And then they're off again. And that sort of that natural progression. I would use beagles and play when there's a behaviour that we want to pop a limit in with. And so if it's like, if they're starting to get aggressive, if they're starting to, you know, pull out your shirt and scratch you and hit you. And, you know, I've been through this myself. And I work through with a lot of parents around when kids get really aggressive, like, because you've said no. And, you know, that's where we can actually use play, and some giggling and laughter to, you know, set that limit that might be No, no, no, no, we're not gonna do that. Nope, we're not hit me. And you know, you're dodging their hands and you're holding their hands. But, uh, you're trying to do that as playful as possible. And I know, it's so hard. So I want to say that it's very hard to do this. That's why getting our own support is paramount to having a space for our own feelings to be heard. So that we can set these limits, playfully and you know, calmly and you know, within that regulated state.

Emma Pickett  49:23

Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the the sort of aggression and violence because I think that's the scariest space when it comes to winning when you know, the sad little person on the floor is a child where you can I think sometimes it's much easier to regulate, you know, can be can be the grown up in that moment, we can support them and be alongside them. But when someone is literally kicking you and hitting you and saying you know I won't melt right now. I mean, I have worked with families where that's been happening historically and and sometimes the parent gives in and ends up feeding and to says, you know, I can't I can't do this and so after five minutes of no Oh, they just go okay, fine. And then they feel awful because they know they've not held that boundary and they've sent mixed messages and they've reinforced that behaviour. I mean, what would you say to a parent who's in that sort of spiral of dealing with aggression, and sometimes giving in and not feeling in control that that power balance and that relationship is not in a great place? 

Shelley Clarke  50:21

Yeah, and my first point of call would be compassion for the parents. And I will always say, I get it, it's okay, we can try again, tomorrow, you know, it's okay. If they like, are really feeling that guilt, and that, you know, they're really beating themselves up that they didn't hold the boundary, it's like, we were doing our very best we can. And this is a hard process, and you might try something, and it doesn't quite work. And then we come back to the drawing board, you go back to your therapy session, or your support person and go that didn't work. And then you know, you offload your own feelings, and you come up with a new thing, and you're going back, so compassion for ourselves as parents first because if we are beating ourselves up in that cycle, it's very hard to move out of. And then my next thing would be playing with our children outside of some of those times where they might be asking for a feed. So if it's coming up to a time where they would normally have a seed, I would play with that earlier, like and doing things like roughhousing. And so lots and lots of pillow fights. And roughhousing is so good for our kids to shift frustration. And when they're hitting you, and they're just, they're not being naughty, they are just offloading that frustration around something not going the way they wanted it to. Now, it also is helpful to remember that these feelings can be a build up of, you know, if we have not really had that full expression of their feelings for two or three years, if they're too. And we're now just, you know, starting to listen to feelings, that can be a backlog. So it's nice to remember for parents that it might not be just this moment that they're frustrated about, it's like this buildup of tension in their bodies. So roughhousing pillow fight, so having a pillow fight where they get to hit you with a pillow, and you fall back, you know, like, you're the, you're the weak person that's falling over and laughing and giggling, and they get to really kind of give you a tap with a pillow and whack you with a pillow and you say, oh, gosh, you're not gonna get me this time. And then they get to, you know, push you over, or, you know, anytime where they get to push against you, and they get to use their body and squeeze their muscles and, you know, and and use up some of that energy and get it out, then when you come to the No, around the time, you might find it's much, it's much easier, you won't have that same aggression that's coming out at that time, because you've already shifted it.

Emma Pickett  52:54

Yeah, yeah, I think that's really valuable. So it's not about those five minutes where it all went pear shaped. It's about what happened the day before. What else is going on with your play with your child, how you repair the relationship outside of that moment? Not necessarily, the clever thing that you do in that moment to stop them hitting and kicking. It's what did you do four hours before or six hours before? And that's, that's what we'll we'll repair that eventually. 

Shelley Clarke  53:21

Yeah, yeah. The other thing with aggression, and so we can play and allow space for laughter and giggles and rough housing, and I used to roll my kids up in the blanket and make sausage rolls. And so I'd pretend to then eat the sausage roll, and they would try and run away from me. So it's not necessarily play around feeding, it's just play to help shift the feelings that they are carrying in their bodies. And so the other ones that I would do, we'd get all the pillows in the house, throw them on the on the child, and they would have to explode out of the pillows and scammy. Or we would, you know, there's so many different things that you can do. So the play and the laughter and the roughhousing is great, but also, it's really important, if we can, as calmly as we can, if they are hitting we do sometimes need that physical limit to hold their leg away from you, or hold their hands away from you and stop them from we don't this is not about allowing them to hit us and allowing behaviour we want to say no to the behaviours but we're saying yes to the feelings that are driving those behaviours underneath.

Emma Pickett  54:27

Yeah. So in terms of saying no to the fact that babies can ask you a little bit more detail, what sort of language you might be using. So if a child is literally kicking you, and let's say that they're two and a half, what sort of language would you would you use in that moment?

Shelley Clarke  54:44

Ah, sometimes we can get really, really cool on phrases and we can get really, you know, scripts and things like that of exactly what to say. And I'm very much like, Look, if we can bring our presence and if we can be as calm as we can, you know, it's an Not necessarily, it's not necessarily what we say, it's how we just convey, you know, sweetie, I'm not going to let your kick or I can't let your kick or I'm not willing for you to kick or a note, we're not going to kick today. You know, we're not we don't even need to say today, but we're just not going to kick mummy. And so it can just be a simple No. And back then what we're doing is we're not then saying no, we don't, we don't kick in you over there, because you're doing that or, you know, we're not punishing them for for doing those things. We're just saying, No, sweetie, I'm not gonna let you kick. I'm right here. I'm listening. So we're saying no to the kicking? Or the hitting? Or the biting? Or whatever it is. Are we actually then just saying yes, with our presence with our body with our language with our body language? And saying, I'm right here sweater, I can see you're having a really hard time. Yeah. And then we wait. And, you know, they'll probably come at you again. And so then you hold their hand. Is this winning? No, we're not gonna kick. We're not gonna hit no. And then I'm right here with you. And that makes a big difference.

Emma Pickett  56:04

Yeah. So we're cert was saying staying regulated, was saying, staying calm. We're turning off that little inner dialogue that says, you would not have been allowed to do this, though. Yeah, sent to the naughty step. You know, your dad raised his voice when you behave like this. We're not being a weaker parent. By doing that we're not being a softer parent, we're we're being a parent that's stronger, because we're staying regulated, and we're staying in that sort of emotionally safe space. This is a difficult question. I'm not expecting you to have the answer to this. But I sometimes come across parents where the breastfeeding mom is really switched into all this. They're listening to this podcast, they are reading about hand in hand parenting, they're really switched on and their other partner may not be there, or they may be in full time work. They're doing very little reading around parenting. They haven't broken cycles, they're perhaps more authoritarian. They may not even be fully supportive of continuing to breastfeed beyond infancy. But they certainly see this softness as an example of your failure as a parent, this is what happens if we carry on breastfeed, we get these soft kids that aren't disciplined. What do we say to someone who is sort of clashing in their parenting style with their partner, because perhaps their partner's not been able to do some of this work?

Shelley Clarke  57:17

This is really hard. And it's also really common, you know, this would be most of the parents that have come to workshops with me, the you know, it's that dynamic. And it can be really tricky. And so trying to have conversations with your partner, you know, keeping up because often as the, you know, the breastfeeding parent, you might be the one doing a lot of the reading and the research and the upskilling, in your knowledge. And it's really, you know, we can forget to pass that on. So it might be, hey, can you read this? Or can you listen to this podcast now, that might not always land and you might not have a partner that is willing to do those things. And so it can be tricky. And so for me, I started this work when my husband wasn't home. So if he was at work during the day, I actually tried some of these philosophies and tried some of this stuff at home. Because I had the same thoughts. I was like, How is this possible, I am letting my you know, I am letting my child cry, it felt very strange when I first started to just not do anything, to stop the crying just to allow them to have that full cry felt very uncomfortable in my body, because as you said, no one's done that for me. So it felt very strange. And so the thing that I would say to parents, when you're trying this, or you're hearing anything, oh might give this a go, is to do it when you are comfortable. And you know, maybe your partner is not at home or they're at work and you try some listening during the day, and you try some play during the day. And then you see how that goes. And the evidence is in how your child is afterwards. We're always observing your child and observing them looking at what changes Oh, wow, their behaviours really changed actually. And they are not hitting and kicking anymore? Or are they quite comfortable just to leave me and go and play over here now and leave me more easily? Ah, that's interesting. I had a big had a big cry yesterday and this is what I'm noticing. I always say to parents, you know, try it's like a trial and error. It's a try this see what your child you know how that goes for them. See how it is for us. You know, and same with the listening to any age baby or any age child. It's always like observing your child first. Trying the thing a game, trying some listening, seeing what you can implement, and then observing them again and going yeah, that worked or that didn't that didn't feel good that did those sort of things. So trialling it without your other partner might be Don't so that they're not sort of baring over you going, what are you doing? Why aren't you fixing it? Oh, well, you're being too soft and they need more discipline and, you know, that's hard to then being really grounded and present and listening to your child's feelings. If you've been feel like you're being judged, or you feel like you're being, you know, you're not doing it right, or whatever it might be. So that, but then also having supportive places where there are people that are doing it already, and that have done it, you know, ahead of you. So finding support groups, finding a course to start enjoying or a group to join or a mentor, or these things can really help and answer your questions as you, you know, start to play with them in this way, or listen to a big, big cry in this way.

Emma Pickett  1:00:43

Yeah, so your confidence will come from, from practice, you know, yes, PRAK practice in terms of where the cm with an s trying it out, and you know, what you do every day, and then we'll probably have a better chance of being able to communicate to your partner if you, you're coming from a place of confidence, and you're coming from a place to be able to say, you know, what, when when this happened yesterday, this is what I did. And I didn't just give in and breastfeed, and yes, they did, they did cry a little bit longer. But that crying ended up taking us to a good place. I mean, that conversation is something that you need to try before you can actually tell someone, it definitely worked. 

Shelley Clarke  1:01:20

And that's been my experience, because I've been doing this now for 10 years, not nine years. And, you know, when I first started it, I was like, What is this, like, you know, listening to a child have a big cry like, this is so foreign. And I didn't tell anyone what I was doing, because no one else was doing it around me. My parents thought it was strange, they were like you need my mom couldn't she's like, You need to fix it, you know, she panic around me going quick. Give them some food, give them some lollies, give them this, give them that, you know what, and I'm like, Mom Stop. And so you know, it was really hard for people. But as we grew in confidence, and we can see the changes in the children. And I would say most other partners, come on board, when you see the changes in your children as you do it. 

Emma Pickett  1:02:05

Yeah. And just to clarify, the changes come not from you waking up on Monday and saying we're not breastfeeding now. And now I'm just going to sit with you while you cry. The changes are about all the play stuff, all the connection stuff, all the attachment play, the time you invest in your relationship with your child has to come alongside that. So it's not just a case of you know, I'm quite big on saying weaning is not just removing the breastfeeding weaning is, you've got to find other things that meet the needs. And the dream scenario for me is when a child would have previously said, Can I breastfeed? They then start to say, Oh, can we play that game, you know, that really was a game where, you know, I jump out the pillows, or let's go and do that roleplay where I'm the boss and, and the or the cat or whatever it's going to be you want them to be able to communicate alternatives. And that's why for a nonverbal child, it takes a little bit of imagination to maybe have signs or pictures on the wall, or little Polaroids or ways that they can ask for alternatives. So again, they've got that empowerment of being able to request something else. 

Shelley Clarke  1:03:06

Yeah, absolutely. I think even for an 18 month old or for a nonverbal child, they will come up and they will be in for your attention. And they're really, really bidding for your connection. And so you know, they will still come up and even non verbally, they might pull your shirt down. Now they might be hungry, and they might want to snuggle. But if that is wanting you wanting to change that dynamic, each time they come up to you see it as them coming and saying, Hey, I need you, I need some, I need to feel you, I need to feel you in some way. Because a child's whole life and well being it's a vital need that they feel seen and heard and understood and connected to an adult caregiver. And so they need to feel us now breastfeeding doesn't meet that need. But also play can meet that need, and a cuddle can meet that need and some laughter and eye contact. And maybe it's them coming in to check that you're still there. And that's it's like what is the need underneath here. And we can meet that through many different ways. 

Emma Pickett  1:04:11

Yeah. And we can believe that over time, and they can start to believe that over time, and when both parties feel confident that's that's a winning relationship coming to a successful end. Sometimes parents come to me when they've tried to win previously, and things have not gone well. So let's imagine an older relative did tell them to go and stay away from their child. And they, you know, had a few nights away and came back and there's a real sort of crisis or a rupture in the relationship. How can sort of relationships be repaired with little people if something has gone a bit pear shaped?

Shelley Clarke  1:04:42

Yeah. All the things that we've been talking about. So you know, playing a laughter, listening to those feelings that might come up now that might now present in a way where that child's clinging to that that mother in circumstances where they weren't Obviously, so maybe the lungs, you know, goes to get out to those out to do the washing and the child's like clinging to them, or you feel like you can't put your child down because they cry then. So it might, you might find that after you've that rupture has happened, that there's areas where the feelings start to bubble up to the surface. And so that's where we can bring in the same things to help repair that break in that connection. And so it might be just the play, you know, there might be a playful game where, say, the your child's crawling away from you, or walking away from you, and you're sitting in your plane, they start to move away from you, you might say, Come back, come back, no, don't leave me, don't leave me, don't leave me and you go to sort of like pull them in towards you. And they they are, then it's a power reversal game, they're in a more powerful role, because they're the one choosing to leave you, which is what happened in if we have done that sort of, you know, a quick rupture, or a break in connection. So we can play that out in the same ways. And that can be really powerful. That's how we rebuild that connection, if there has been a break in that. So play in that same way. Or if there is a time where, say, your child does start to cry, because you're going to the shops. And in normally they wouldn't normally cry, because you're going to the shops, you might just say, Oh, sweetheart, I'm going to the shops in a minute, I'm so sorry that I left, you know, the other day when you went away, or you can just apologise for what that was what happened? I'm sorry, I left you. I'm right here, tell me all about it. Because what they're doing is they're offloading their feelings that that they were carrying around from the time that you know they from last week when you left them, and so having a chance for them to offload is helpful.

Emma Pickett  1:06:52

So it's that sort of broken biscuit thing, isn't it? Where actually, they're not that bothered about you going to the shops, they're actually bothered about what happened before they haven't had a chance to process and they might need to process it. And in lots of other little ways.

Shelley Clarke  1:07:04

Yes, exactly. That they you know, the shop, it's not about the shop, because the shop normally doesn't, you know, bring out these feelings. It's that the feelings came from the weekend away the whatever it was the rupture, and the feelings are coming out now with the small thing you know, you might, it might just be going out to the washing line, they might start to cry. So then listening there, don't dismiss it and go, Oh, gosh, what's wrong with you? Why are you doing that now? I'm just going to the shops, honey, you'll be fine. I'll be back in five minutes. When we dismiss our kids in that way, we're missing an opportunity to just help them offload the feelings that they are carrying from whenever the hurt happened.

Emma Pickett  1:07:45

Yeah, you've been very generous with your time Shelly, I'm going to be very cheeky and ask one more question if I've got time. Yes. So one thing that that often comes up when parents are weaning is that the child in in looking for agency starts to reject the other parent. And you know, when Daddy comes in, in the morning, we don't want daddy go away. We want mummy. You know, we don't want daddy to do bath time. And they're rejecting the other parent. On that this is obviously a big area and it's a lot of work to be done. But what would you say to a family if, if a young child is rejecting one of one of the parents? 

Shelley Clarke  1:08:21

Yeah, so first of all, I always start with any question around any of these any any scenario is what does it bring up for each parent? And that's a good chance for them to process those feelings. So what does it bring up for the for the for the mother if they're wanting the mother all the time? What does it bring up for that mother isn't issue actually really happy that she's the child's to wants her even though they're weaning off the breastfeeding is their, you know, what does it bring up for her around this scenario? What does it bring up for the dad around feeling rejected or around feeling that they don't can't do anything go they're not needed? Or, you know, what are our own feelings, because that has a big part in in how we respond to our kids. That's number one. Then the second part is using play to help with feelings that are coming up around whatever parent it might be. And so you can play a game where and because often the child might be like, well, oh my gosh, breastfeeding is nd I've got to cling to mum. So one the mums gonna be working through her own stuff and not going okay, great. Yes, they're clinging to me. And like mom's got to do a bit of work to going okay, this is a right you definitely need to have some time with dad and often the mum like secretly loves it, but then also wants time on her own and wants to be able to do you know other things. And so they're tall and so working through those feelings. So that then we can play with it. And it might be a game and this is this is like if you play one game this is a really powerful game called fight over me game. And so the parents fight over the child. So if this is an 18 month old my 11 year old loves this game still aware if it's bad time, and the child's clinging to the mom, for the Dad, don't take it personally. Don't take it personally and go off fine. Go with Dad mum then and go off and you know, Dad just goes something like, oh, no, I want to do bath time. And you know, grabs the child a little bit and sort of has a bit of a wrestle and go no, no, come to me. And then mum goes, no, no, I want to do bath time come to me. And all of a sudden, the child feels loved feels seen feels like oh my gosh, dad wants me and mum wants me and they both really want me and the feelings that they were having about? You know, what? What's this change in our relationship happening with the breastfeeding? They're gone? Because they're like, Oh, Mom and Dad, there's so much attention and connection on me that they just laugh and giggle and all of a sudden, you know, five minutes of that. And then your the child goes, Okay, I'll go with dad now. 

Emma Pickett  1:11:04

So releasing that tension super important, and it's not just for the child, but it's for the rejected parent as well. And yes, and I think it's so natural for any adult to go, My God, my child's rejecting me what's going on. And we will almost sort of step back. But we've got to step forward, we got to step into that space and, and say, you know, it's my turn, I totally hear that you want, you know, other parent. But this is my goal. And I love you. And this is what we're going to do together. And use information.

Shelley Clarke  1:11:28

Yeah, and the other thing that might happen, so you can do play with that these are always my go to is play and then listening to the feelings. So if you can see the theme happening here, but you can play with it in that way. But then also, it might need a limit where you're putting in a loving limit, like you just said, where the dad goes, it's my turn, sweetie, we're going to do the bath now. And then if the child is having a big cry about that, you can just validate and honour those feelings and listen and say, I know you really want mommy, but I really am here to do bath time. And I love you. Like you said, they have a big big cry, you know, in the bathroom on the floor, they don't want to get in the bath. But the dad can hold space for those feelings. And say, I know you want my I'm here. I'm listening. I love you. And it actually means that dads, dads can do listening to it means that they can listen to those feelings that the child's offloading and there is not a parent yet that I've dad that I've you know, they've listened to their child and and the kids then gone on are still want Mum, most of the time they then go, oh, I can Dad, let's have a bath, and then they play and then bedtimes easy. And it's like, sometimes we just need to hold that limit, and the other parent can listen, I can't tell you the amount of times that I've listened to my child want my husband or then my husband enlisted my husband's listing because they want me like they always want the other parent because they're just using that as a thing to pray about.

Emma Pickett  1:12:53

Yeah, yeah, as you say another thing to try and exert some power over their world where little people have very little power over their world. Yeah, thanks, Shelley. 

Shelley Clarke  1:13:01

And also giving them choice is helpful to like you just said, you know that we do want to give them agency and autonomy and make it so who do you want tonight, and they sort of get to pick but if you find that there's a rigidity, or there's a cleanness or there's a real parent preference, then that's where the play and and setting a limit where you would then listen to the feelings is going to be the theme that helps shift that dynamic. 

Emma Pickett  1:13:24

Yeah. Shelley, I could talk to you for another hour. But that's considered rude in podcast world so. So in terms of resources, and in the show notes, and we're going to mention your website, Hand in Hand Parenting, Aware Parenting, are there any other resources that you think are really important in this conversation around big feelings and the weaning space and boundaries around breastfeeding?

Shelley Clarke  1:13:45

Yes, there is Marian Rose, who is an Aware Parenting instructor here in Australia, and around the world, she has just released her new book, which is The Emotional Life of Babies. And that is a brilliant book. And it really goes into the nuances, some of those nuances the way around feeding and listening and you know, the, how we actually do it and what it looks like. It's a brilliant book. So that would be another resource. There's also like reaching out and finding a mentor or support person, so you know yourself and having someone that can help you step through a plan and bounce ideas off and just give you that encouragement or listen to your own feelings around weaning. And that's just vital, I think for you know, moving through these big phases and transitions. 

Emma Pickett  1:14:38

Yeah, that's really helpful. Thank you so much for your time. I know how much value you bring to parents lives and I'm hoping that this little hour and 16 minutes has given some people some insight into the work that you do and it's really appreciated. 

Shelley Clarke  1:14:51

Thank you so much for having me. I could keep chatting about this all day as well because I love it so much. And I really love hearing if someone has listened to this and tries some play please email me or reach out send me a message on Instagram or somewhere because I love hearing your, you know, things that people do and it changes, you know their experience. So, thank you so much. 

Emma Pickett  1:15:13

Yeah, ditto. Thanks, Shelley. 

Emma Pickett  1:15:21

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram @EmmaPicketIBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving your review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.